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by Ceisiwr
Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:38 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Two Types of Jhāna
Replies: 22
Views: 427

Re: Two Types of Jhāna

Knowing, understanding and discriminating doesn't necessarily involve vittaka & vicara. Even in daily life this can be seen. Understanding (paññā) requires reflective thought (paṭisañcikkhati). How can one reflect when the mind is in an immovable state (āneñja), and without vitakka-vicāra which...
by Ceisiwr
Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:13 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Two Types of Jhāna
Replies: 22
Views: 427

Re: Two Types of Jhāna

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:04 pm Vitakka & Vicara may have gone but discrimination, perception and understanding are still rattling around.

Although, these things are long gone in VM style jhana.
This is deliberate misrepresentation. Fake news.
by Ceisiwr
Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:12 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Two Types of Jhāna
Replies: 22
Views: 427

Re: Two Types of Jhāna

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:04 pm You're not making your argument;
Providing premises and a conclusion is making an argument.
by Ceisiwr
Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:11 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Two Types of Jhāna
Replies: 22
Views: 427

Re: Two Types of Jhāna

It's of little value to throw out a couple of sutta numbers without actually quoting the parts that you think backs up your view. From MN 52 Again, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain…a …Then they reflect (paṭisañcikkhati) : ‘This fourth jhāna is conditioned and volitionally produced. But what...
by Ceisiwr
Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:48 pm
Forum: Early Buddhism
Topic: What is a dhammā exactly?
Replies: 39
Views: 998

Re: What is a dhammā exactly?

If they are qualities then that isn’t quite true. Also nibbana is said to be a dhamma. Conditioned qualities are fabricated. And nibbana is beyond fabrication by definition. We have to distinguish between conditioned and unconditioned dhammas. "Anything we experience" covers both? I think...
by Ceisiwr
Wed Mar 27, 2024 12:55 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Two Types of Jhāna
Replies: 22
Views: 427

Re: Two Types of Jhāna

So you investigate impermanence in a 'normal' state? Why bother with jhana in the first place? Is there anywhere in the suttas that states one comes out of any of the four jhanas in order to develop wisdom? MN 140, MN 52 It's of little value to throw out a couple of sutta numbers without actually q...
by Ceisiwr
Wed Mar 27, 2024 10:02 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Two Types of Jhāna
Replies: 22
Views: 427

Re: Two Types of Jhāna

What is "object-scrutinising Jhāna"? "Jhāna is twofold: that which (views or) examines closely the object and that which examines closely the characteristic marks. Of these two, "object-scrutinising" Jhāna examines closely the devices [e.g., Kasiṇas] as mental objects. Insi...
by Ceisiwr
Tue Mar 26, 2024 9:32 pm
Forum: Early Buddhism
Topic: What is a dhammā exactly?
Replies: 39
Views: 998

Re: What is a dhammā exactly?

Yes, this old paper by Gethin was good. He also discusses dhammas as states or qualities at length in his main book the Buddhist path to Awakening (highly recommended). For those who don't know, Rupert Gethin is a devoted Buddhist practitioner who belongs to the English Samatha Trust . Here are two...
by Ceisiwr
Tue Mar 26, 2024 9:10 pm
Forum: Early Buddhism
Topic: What is a dhammā exactly?
Replies: 39
Views: 998

Re: What is a dhammā exactly?

Yes, this old paper by Gethin was good. He also discusses dhammas as states or qualities at length in his main book the Buddhist path to Awakening (highly recommended). For those who don't know, Rupert Gethin is a devoted Buddhist practitioner who belongs to the English Samatha Trust . Here are two...
by Ceisiwr
Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:12 pm
Forum: Early Buddhism
Topic: What is a dhammā exactly?
Replies: 39
Views: 998

Re: What is a dhammā exactly?

emptyset wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 7:59 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 3:20 pm Anything we experience?
Anything we fabricate
If they are qualities then that isn’t quite true. Also nibbana is said to be a dhamma.
by Ceisiwr
Tue Mar 26, 2024 2:33 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Decipher this to me with early teaching proof
Replies: 10
Views: 273

Re: Decipher this to me with early teaching proof

... The Buddha taught Nakulapita that even though the body gets ill, the mind doesn't have to... Nakulapitusutta isn't about mental health. It isn't about Alzheimer's disease, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, etc. This interpretation happens because of taking "citta" as meaning "the ...
by Ceisiwr
Tue Mar 26, 2024 10:25 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: When Tathagata was teaching, who was teaching?
Replies: 25
Views: 869

Re: When Tathagata was teaching, who was teaching?

In the suttas Buddha was asked if he was a human or a god. He responded that he was neither. So who was teaching us Dhamma? Using simple logic, it seems that the Unconditioned was teaching us the path to the Unconditioned through the remaining aggregates of Gotama. Thoughts? :anjali: That’s a wrong...
by Ceisiwr
Tue Mar 26, 2024 9:30 am
Forum: Early Buddhism
Topic: What is a dhammā exactly?
Replies: 39
Views: 998

Re: What is a dhammā exactly?

Greetings, The whole point of the Buddha’s teaching was to stop thinking in terms of “noumena”. I'm not sure what scholastic treatise you derived that speculation from, but last time I checked it was for the cessation of dukkha. Metta, Paul. :) Thinking there are substantial things is part of the p...
by Ceisiwr
Tue Mar 26, 2024 9:14 am
Forum: Early Buddhism
Topic: What is a dhammā exactly?
Replies: 39
Views: 998

Re: What is a dhammā exactly?

Greetings Sam, The Buddha's Noble Truth of arising leaves no room for any of this academic / Hindu / Brahmic / Abhidhammic hokum... but while there's a market for it, there will be supply. Looking for some common ground here between you and C. Do dhammas arise, and if so what are they? :anjali: Bee...
by Ceisiwr
Mon Mar 25, 2024 7:45 pm
Forum: Early Buddhism
Topic: What is a dhammā exactly?
Replies: 39
Views: 998

Re: What is a dhammā exactly?

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 3:20 pm Anything we experience?
I would say so, although concepts is debatable. The irreducible qualities of experience, irreducible since they aren’t coming from an underlying substratum. We can see how the Theravadin view of irreducible = real came to be.