Race, gender a no go?

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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Modus.Ponens wrote:A lot of the topics about women rights turn bitter because most men, here or anywhere else, resent women. The same is true with women towards men.

Wow, really? I only find there's a problem when an individual takes it upon themselves to tar half the human population with a very broad brush.

Still, if it is true, this being a "Buddhist discussion forum", I would have thought that cultivating wholesome states (e.g. kindness, compassion), and reducing unwholesome states (e.g. aversion, fear) would be an apt mode of discussion, no matter what the topic. I also believe that if that's what happened, there would be no need for moderators to delete posts, let alone lock these topics.

Be cool. 8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)


Hello Retro.

I am not sure if you're saying that what I said was obvious, or if it is untrue.

Nevertheless, it's true of me and most likely of the thread derrailers. If that's the case, I find it best if it's discussed under closer supervision, ie, the Hot Topics section.

I know I've said things out of resentment here that I strongly regreted later. But I also think that these topics (men, women and how we relate to each other on all levels) have to be discussed by us buddhists. After all, sexuality is a central aspect of our lives. If it's a taboo, it's easier to become an obstacle. Both to the path and to the relationships.

My personal opinion is that political correctness hides a lot of truths (please don't take this as an atack) under pleasant, but untruthful speech. If we find a way to talk about this in a truthful, honest, but always kind, way, then it would only be of benefit. Of course, this sounds good in theory, but in practice it's probably very dificult, even though I think it's very important.

:anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby Mkoll » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:51 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:If it's a taboo, it's easier to become an obstacle. Both to the path and to the relationships.

It's taboo for 8-precept keepers and those even more committed. The purpose of that taboo is precisely for overcoming the obstacle of sexuality.
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:05 am

Mkoll wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:If it's a taboo, it's easier to become an obstacle. Both to the path and to the relationships.

It's taboo for 8-precept keepers and those even more committed. The purpose of that taboo is precisely for overcoming the obstacle of sexuality.

I may be misreading, but I don't think M.P. is referring only to sexual activity. I think the reference is to all aspects of gender and sexuality:
Modus.Ponens wrote:But I also think that these topics (men, women and how we relate to each other on all levels) have to be discussed by us buddhists. After all, sexuality is a central aspect of our lives. If it's a taboo, it's easier to become an obstacle. Both to the path and to the relationships.

:anjali:
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby Mkoll » Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:39 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:If it's a taboo, it's easier to become an obstacle. Both to the path and to the relationships.

It's taboo for 8-precept keepers and those even more committed. The purpose of that taboo is precisely for overcoming the obstacle of sexuality.

I may be misreading, but I don't think M.P. is referring only to sexual activity. I think the reference is to all aspects of gender and sexuality:
Modus.Ponens wrote:But I also think that these topics (men, women and how we relate to each other on all levels) have to be discussed by us buddhists. After all, sexuality is a central aspect of our lives. If it's a taboo, it's easier to become an obstacle. Both to the path and to the relationships.

:anjali:
Mike

In that case, it's my misunderstanding. 8-)
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:28 am

I am refering to sexuality, love and family, mainly, because those are the strongest interactions possible between both genders. But these things are relevant to other situations, like work, for example.
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby Mr Man » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:53 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Modus.Ponens wrote:A lot of the topics about women rights turn bitter because most men, here or anywhere else, resent women. The same is true with women towards men.

Wow, really? I only find there's a problem when an individual takes it upon themselves to tar half the human population with a very broad brush.


Hi Retro
If you read again what Modus.Ponens wrote you will see that actually it is not "half the human population", which has been tarred. Modus.Ponens says "most men" and "same is true with women towards men" That would be the entire population.
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:25 am

I'm not really sure how to respond to this thread. I don't always know the gender or race of other contributors, and I'm not aware of treating people any differently when I do know. :shrug:

If people are wanting more discussion of race and gender issues that's fine by me, though I'd be concerned if it came to dominate discussion here.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby martinfrank » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:37 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Just delete the posts that violate the TOS instead of locking the thread. Most users manage to post without being racist, sexist, or otherwise disruptive. If some members repeatedly violate the TOS, then apply sanctions such as withdrawing posting rights for a day or two.

:goodpost:
I second the Ven. Bhikkhu's suggestion.
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby martinfrank » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:46 am

SarathW wrote:If the objective of post is not clearly related to Dhamma the person who post the OP should clearly demonstrate the objective of the final out come of the post.
What is the objective of the OP in regard to Isreali/Palestinian business ?
:thinking:

One of my posts "Handling of money by monks" was deleted.
I am sure moderators must have frustrated with the similar thread "Broken Buddha'
But my objective was:
a)If I become a monk should I handle the money?
b)If I handle the money as a monk how I justify it to a lay person?
c)If monks break the precept what is the use of having a precept?
:thinking:

:goodpost:
When I (before I read The Broken Buddha") dared to relate my experience with monks and money, the thread was locked immediately and I was told that I am offending the Sangha.
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby dhammafriend » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:57 am

Sokehi wrote:You might misunderstand me here - I guess badly. I don't want to turn this thread around into discussion gender issues or whatever, this thread I guess is not about discussions that have been raised in numerous other topics. At least I did understand the OP that way.

Most who know me here know that I strongly oppose inequality, revisionism, fascism, racism and in particular have received for my pro-bhikkuni approach quite some heat. So again, I guess you misunderstand me here totally.

And "BS" is not very much right speech btw.


My apologies Sokehi, I was still angry and irritated about Cooran's thread. I was a bit harsh here. What worries me more than the outright sexism, racism, homophobia etc is attitudes that render it invisible. The usual bland platitudes: we are all the same, we are all equal, we shouldn't see race.. Despite people proclaiming from the rooftops that they do not see race etc, none of the attitudes above actually address real issues, but rather actually encourage them to flourish by them by making them 'invisible'.

Spiny Norman wrote:I'm not really sure how to respond to this thread. I don't always know the gender or race of other contributors, and I'm not aware of treating people any differently when I do know.

If people are wanting more discussion of race and gender issues that's fine by me, though I'd be concerned if it came to dominate discussion here.


As for these tops being relevant, who gets to decide that? I went for refuge quite a few years ago, but I did not stop being a black male living in a post colonial developing nation. It affects all aspects of my Buddhist practice. My access to monastics, teachings etc. My race determines how I am seen by others. You can trust me on that, or dismiss it as nonsense. If you choose to dismiss my interpretation of my experience, you are part of the 'problem'. Plain and simple. Just a general comment based on your post Spiny, not directed to you specifically.

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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby SarathW » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:20 am

Dhammafriend
It appears to me that you are overly reacting to this very common human weakness.
I can related to you as I was very sensitive to this some years ago.
If you are nice to people they don't see your colour or sex or what ever. (you may find some odd people)
All this time I thought that you are a white female.
I still don't know whether Cooran is male or female. (Because these are not material to me)
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby Sokehi » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:24 am

dhammafriend wrote:
My apologies Sokehi, I was still angry and irritated about Cooran's thread. I was a bit harsh here. What worries me more than the outright sexism, racism, homophobia etc is attitudes that render it invisible. The usual bland platitudes: we are all the same, we are all equal, we shouldn't see race.. Despite people proclaiming from the rooftops that they do not see race etc, none of the attitudes above actually address real issues, but rather actually encourage them to flourish by them by making them 'invisible'.


No worries friend :)

Well I said this in another thread before: if people lack or suppress compassion they mix sometimes conventional with absoulte reality. Absolute: no gender, no race, no me, no you. Conventional: I am here, you are here, and there is what people identify as "race" (false in itself you know but here we go) or different sexes, genders, LGBT's and so on. So if people subjectively suffer under prejudice and harassment for differing attributes of their body, mindest etc. it's easy as a buddhist to say "Just let go, you are attached to your self view". This might be right, sakkaya ditthi is a truth. But ugly behaviour and jerkish harrasments are true too and people who suffer under this should not torture themselves for being "not good enough" for not being able to let this go quickly and easily. To say it's your fault because you can't let go immediately is the same as accusing someone for not being an Arahant. And those are rare fulfilled beings, I guess I haven't met one yet in 40 years.

So I guess a compassionate approach is to listen carefully to other peoples experiences and subjective histories of discrimination and to help them to be at ease foremost. Then when the right time and place has come one can help them further by pointing towards the absolute truth, that Racists or Sexists etc. don't see this truth, don't understand the four noble truths and the three characteristics of existence.

To exclusively point towards the absolute truth is a sign of intelligence, of a functioning rational mind. But if this is lacking compassion or empathy it is still not the eightfold path of the Buddha - but the twofold or threefold path. And this is not wisdom as I see it. :anjali:
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby Sokehi » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:26 am

SarathW wrote:If you are nice to people they don't see your colour or sex or what ever. (you may find some odd people)


They are A LOT of odd people on this planet and during it's history. The Nazi regime, Pol Pot, Stalin, the KKK, the ISIS, Taliban, Al Quaida, the Pancasila milita in Indonesia etc. pp. and the everyday latent racist next door. For some it's not enough that you are nice and friendly, some are blinded by their false and deluded believes I'm afraid. :anjali:
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby Mkoll » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:28 am

Sokehi wrote:To say it's your fault because you can't let go immediately is the same as accusing someone for not being an Arahant. And those are rare fulfilled beings, I guess I haven't met one yet in 40 years.

...

To exclusively point towards the absolute truth is a sign of intelligence, of a functioning rational mind. But if this is lacking compassion or empathy it is still not the eightfold path of the Buddha - but the twofold or threefold path. And this is not wisdom as I see it.

Yes, I learned a new term for this kind of "compassionless wisdom": emptiness sickness. Definitely something to be wary of in oneself and others.
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:30 am

dhammafriend wrote:
Sokehi wrote:You might misunderstand me here - I guess badly. I don't want to turn this thread around into discussion gender issues or whatever, this thread I guess is not about discussions that have been raised in numerous other topics. At least I did understand the OP that way.

Most who know me here know that I strongly oppose inequality, revisionism, fascism, racism and in particular have received for my pro-bhikkuni approach quite some heat. So again, I guess you misunderstand me here totally.

And "BS" is not very much right speech btw.


My apologies Sokehi, I was still angry and irritated about Cooran's thread. I was a bit harsh here. What worries me more than the outright sexism, racism, homophobia etc is attitudes that render it invisible. The usual bland platitudes: we are all the same, we are all equal, we shouldn't see race.. Despite people proclaiming from the rooftops that they do not see race etc, none of the attitudes above actually address real issues, but rather actually encourage them to flourish by them by making them 'invisible'.

Spiny Norman wrote:I'm not really sure how to respond to this thread. I don't always know the gender or race of other contributors, and I'm not aware of treating people any differently when I do know.

If people are wanting more discussion of race and gender issues that's fine by me, though I'd be concerned if it came to dominate discussion here.


As for these tops being relevant, who gets to decide that? I went for refuge quite a few years ago, but I did not stop being a black male living in a post colonial developing nation. It affects all aspects of my Buddhist practice. My access to monastics, teachings etc. My race determines how I am seen by others. You can trust me on that, or dismiss it as nonsense. If you choose to dismiss my interpretation of my experience, you are part of the 'problem'. Plain and simple. Just a general comment based on your post Spiny, not directed to you specifically.

Metta
Dhammafriend


This is why I am not a fan of political correctness. Because people who can only say platitudes are deluding themselves. And it hides these problems of race and gender. This does not mean that people shouldn't be kind to one another here. Being kind and not being politicaly correct are not mutualy exclusive behaviours.

Mr Man: I know mine was a bold statement, but I stand by it as long if correctly understood. There are many levels of resentment, like there are many levels of anger, or attachment or envy. If I consider all of the levels of resentment, that resentment is a mixture of attachment and aversion, and that only Anagamis and Arahats are completely free from attachment and aversion, then I think the rest of us have this resentment with a very wide variation of degree.

Spiny Norman: I don't want more or less discussion. I am saying that, if it arises, it's best to discuss it, than leaving it under the rug.
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby SarathW » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:47 am

Ask question "Am I free from all the possible discriminations?"
Also remember this is one of eight worldly conditions. Even Buddha has to go through this.
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:07 pm

dhammafriend wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:I'm not really sure how to respond to this thread. I don't always know the gender or race of other contributors, and I'm not aware of treating people any differently when I do know.


As for these tops being relevant, who gets to decide that? I went for refuge quite a few years ago, but I did not stop being a black male living in a post colonial developing nation. It affects all aspects of my Buddhist practice. My access to monastics, teachings etc. My race determines how I am seen by others. You can trust me on that, or dismiss it as nonsense. If you choose to dismiss my interpretation of my experience, you are part of the 'problem'. Plain and simple. Just a general comment based on your post Spiny, not directed to you specifically.


I'm sorry you've had those experiences, but until you just said above I didn't know you were a black male - that was really my point.
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby dhammafriend » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:44 pm

SarathW wrote:Dhammafriend
It appears to me that you are overly reacting to this very common human weakness.
I can related to you as I was very sensitive to this some years ago.
If you are nice to people they don't see your colour or sex or what ever. (you may find some odd people)
All this time I thought that you are a white female.
I still don't know whether Cooran is male or female. (Because these are not material to me)
:console:


:anjali: Thank you SarathW & sadhu to you. Apologies to all for my harsh speech on this thread.

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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Postby philosopher » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:21 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Still, if it is true, this being a "Buddhist discussion forum", I would have thought that cultivating wholesome states (e.g. kindness, compassion), and reducing unwholesome states (e.g. aversion, fear) would be an apt mode of discussion, no matter what the topic.


:goodpost:

The idea that someone else (i.e. a mod) determines whether or not a topic, in and of itself, is "unwholesome" or unsuitable intuitively does not seem like it would foster skillfulness, which I assume is what most of us want to cultivate. Rather, paying attention to how a topic is discussed would help cultivate discernment and agility in one's practice.

Is the point of this path to arrange circumstances such that we come in contact only with arbitrarily defined "wholesome" items, or is it to be able to be free and at peace in any circumstance - no matter how ugly, how chaotic, how steeped in "unwholesomeness"? Is it the content of the experience that is unwholesome or our attitude towards it?
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