Amazing Sangha portrait

[Hanzze]

monks.jpg (130.11 KiB) Viewed 677 times

I wonder which occation that was and who provided all the robes. Remembers a little on a millitary parade and pledge. As far as the picture shows are those about 5-6.000 monks.

[Kim O'Hara]

Dhammakaya.
See http://peaceformeandtheworld.ning.com/group/buddha-life-and-teachings/forum/topics/close-encounters-of-the-buddhist-kind


Kim

[Hanzze]

Ouch! If such things would be funny I would love to laught. And there are people who do not believe that mind is able to create everything, not to think of many mindlessness. There is just "run to the hills" if equanimity is not well developed yet.

If one knows how less free will, blind faith and slave to leading people are in south east asia, one could be even frightened by such pitures. Well, lets think possitive and it's not our bussiness...

How ever, much potential this leaders. "Good" to know that tantric theravada still "exists", I just did not expect it so present.

Maybe I stumble over to much strange things in the last time. Ever heard of a movie "Revolt of the Zombies (1936)"? Google has no mercy or better one does not give mercy to one self and let go of it.

Good to be aware off being in the Lounge... puhhh and

[gavesako]

Not so amazing... This is what it looks like from the control panel:

[DAWN]

What is the specific of Dhammakay teachings that is cryticising? Or it's not a teachings but behaviour?

If this is an offtopic, please delete it.

[perkele]

A google search for "dhammakaya site:dhammawheel.com" should give you quite a bit of information.

They seem to be putting on a big show impressing a lot of simple-minded people, attracting rich people who want to buy merits. That's my impression.
And to "inner circle" members they seem to teach some rather strange esoteric doctrine not dissimilar to scientology. This "insider report", which was posted in a recent topic here, seems quite revealing in that respect: http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethics/2012/07/17/esoteric-teaching-of-wat-phra-dhammakaya

And these big and pompous mass gatherings, and events like this, http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11215, what does that have to do with Dhamma? It's a shame. It's a sham.

I'm almost waiting for the day when my old father will want to go to one of their temples with me to do me a favour because "I'm interested in buddhism", and this is the biggest, blah blah blah... Heaven forbid...

And if that's what future generations in our commercialised world will associate with Dhamma if they ever hear of it and look for it, even in Buddhist countries like Thailand, then...

Okay, maybe we should not all be so pessimistic as I am, but wary in the face of such blinking shining advertisement. The Dhamma is humble. It does not put on a show and is not to be found in the spotlights.

[Hanzze]

For a view point of a normal south east asian person, to be part of such a "movement" is something realy special and such things are really touching them, it is just that they hardly would get the message but develope tanha (desire). They are proud and will tell even the grandchildren of it and the houses of each of them are full with pictures and souvenir. So such things have much more spreading as we can imagen.

It is not possbile to bring such phenomenas on a level "modern" man would understand, the presents of kilesa is of much more intensity. Its a fact that moha tending character/nature does not give people the possibility to thing independenty and they would always follow a strong and "good" voice.
Actually such a movement, if realy good guided could help for some time but one needs to be aware that if the mind (in comparing it with the attention of such a group) fasty drifts away if there is a more dominant object.
The only way to keep such things in a good order is to teach the leaders as much as possible and guide them as much as possible. Of cause maya is very hard to overcome if it is dominant.
How ever, its not only up to the leader and everybody finds what he is looking for. Security is just found in individual understanding, one can not protect others.

If we think on a mega concert of a popstar or rockstar or a football match, there is also not that much different in the western sociaty and we also know that such things carry danger and very less wholesomeless. Seen from this point, it is perhaps a good sample of good mass movements as many of them would how ever work out some merits while taking some precepts for a while and do some meditaion.
Off cause tantric Buddhism has its danger to develope further wrong view, but on a level of somehow zero, there is not much to lose.

It is always good to refect such things and see how much one self is involved in such communities and movements to keep up what is meant by karuna.

That there is no helping if it breaks only a single precept is something everybody should keep in mind. South east asians are fast learner and we know who had taught them and even today proclaim that preaching of Dhamma is very needed and some steps over the precepts are nessesary for that...

Things always come back.

One thing which should be honored is the organisation and discipline. If one know simple people, one would be really amazed how they are able to handle them. Great potential. But wisdom in the hand of the fool will just destroy himself.

In general the situation in South East Asia is the same like this, its just that here it is professional designed. The other mahanikayas (Mahayanas) will follow and take a share of this succsess, not to think of the political use. I do not wonder any more where young and pride Cambodian monks have their ideas from...

Killing in the name of... was not only in the past. So we need much good samples and need to be careful what we transport if we feel the need that others need to addopt our ways. Another reminder to focus on one self.

[Hanzze]

What is the specific of Dhammakay teachings that is cryticising? Or it's not a teachings but behaviour?
If this is an offtopic, please delete it.

There is nothing wrong with Tantric Theravada but it needs to be taught with much care and for sure, its not something that is teach able via TV. But they have addopted that from the acting of others today.

For sure much potential in a use of religion in its general meaning.

Like many Mahayana teachings, those tantric approaches are mostly easier to addopt by layman. The teacher has much responsibility and palys a very importand rule. This Buddhist tradition has acctually a long and mystic history in South East Asia and is of cause much more dry (if used seriously) as other tantric approaches. Its is also a tratition of layman and was often handed over in a lineage of "monks" in white. With the domination of the Dhammayut, this tantric approaches nearly disapeared but have there strong renessance as a folk movement as it seems which of cause is well involved with politic.

Dhammakaya Movement of Thailand

Basing itself on the Pali suttas and meditative experience, it teaches that the Dhammakaya is the eternal Buddha within all beings. The dhammakaya (dharmakaya) is nirvana, and nirvana is equated with the true Self (as opposed to the non-Self):

The Buddha discovered that nirvana is atta [the Self], this movement teaches.

Dharmakāya

There is also a topic about it: Tantric Theravada

Or it's not a teachings but behaviour?

The behavior is always an meassure for the teaching. A teacher should be long and in detail observed and his livelihood and dependency/independency plays a importand rule. One can only teach in the sphear and dimension of his own freedom. Slaves of a movement are not free at all.

[DAWN]

Thanks you

SN 16.7
Advice II

I heard thus. At one time the Blessed One lived in the squirrels' sanctuary in the bamboo grove in Rajagaha.

Venerable Mahakassapa approached the Blessed One worshipped and sat on a side.

The Blessed One said thus to venerable Mahakassapa who was seated on a side: ßKassapa, advise the monks, and give them a sermon. Kassapa, either you should advise the monks and give them a sermon or else I should advise the monks and give them a sermon.û

Venerable sir, nowadays, monks are unruly and do not accept advice with a good heart.

Venerable sir, whoever has no faith in meritorious things, does not strain to do meritorious things, is not conscientious of meritorious things, has not aroused effort to do meritorious things and is not wise about meritorious things, night and day should expect decrease and no growth in meritorious things.

Venerable sir, just as the waxing moon, night and day decreases in beauty, in the orbit, in the radiance and the size, just so whoever has no faith in meritorious things, does not strain to do meritorious things, is not conscientious of meritorious things, has not aroused effort to do meritorious things and is not wise about meritorious things, night and day should expect decrease and no growth in meritorious things

Venerable sir, a person without faith decreases, a person who does not strain decreases, a person who is not conscientious decreases, a lazy person decreases, a not wise person decreases, an angry person decreases, a person bearing a grudge decreases and a person without advice decreases.

Venerable sir, whoever has faith in meritorious things, strains to do meritorious things, is conscientious of meritorious things, has aroused effort to do meritorious things and is wise about meritorious things, night and day should expect increase and not decrease in meritorious things.

Venerable sir, just as the waning moon, night and day increases in beauty, in the orbit, in the radiance and the size, just so whoever has faith in meritorious things, strains to do meritorious things, is conscientious of meritorious things, has aroused effort to do meritorious things and is wise about meritorious things, night and day should expect increase and not decrease in meritorious things

Venerable sir, a person with faith does not decrease, a person who strains does not decrease, a conscientious person does not decrease, a person with aroused effort does not decrease, a wise person does not decrease, a not angry person does not decrease, a person not bearing a grudge does not decrease and a person who is advised does not decrease.û

Excellent! Kassapa, whoever has no faith in meritorious things, does not strain to do meritorious things, is not conscientious of meritorious things, has not aroused effort to do meritorious things and is not wise about meritorious things, night and day should expect decrease and not growth in meritorious things.

Kassapa, just as the waxing moon, night and day decreases in beauty, in the orbit, in the radiance and the size, just so whoever has no faith in meritorious things, does not strain to do meritorious things, is not conscientious of meritorious things, has not aroused effort to do meritorious things and is not wise about meritorious things, night and day should expect decrease and no growth in meritorious things

Kassapa, a person without faith decreases, a person who does not strain decreases, a person who is not conscientious decreases, a lazy person decreases, a not wise person decreases, an angry person decreases, a person bearing a grudge decreases and a person without advice decreases.

Kassapa, whoever has faith in meritorious things, strains to do meritorious things, whoever is conscientious of meritorious things, has aroused effort to do meritorious things and is wise about meritorious things, night and day should expect increase and not decrease in meritorious things.

Kassapa, just as the waning moon, night and day increases in beauty, in the orbit, in the radiance and the size, just so whoever has faith in meritorious things, strains to do meritorious things, is conscientious of meritorious things, has aroused effort to do meritorious things and is wise about meritorious things, night and day should expect increase and not decrease in meritorious things

Kassapa, a person with faith does not decrease, a person who strains does not decrease, a conscientious person does not decrease, a person with aroused effort does not decrease, a wise person does not decrease, a not angry person does not decrease, a person not bearing a grudge does not decrease and a person who is advised does not decrease.

SN 16.8
Advice III
I heard thus. At one time the Blessed One lived in the squirrels' sanctuary in the bamboo grove in Rajagaha.

Venerable Mahakassapa approached the Blessed One worshipped and sat on a side.

The Blessed One said thus to venerable Mahakassapa who was seated on a side: ßKassapa, advise the monks, and give them a sermon. Kassapa, either you should advise the monks and give them a sermon or else I should advise the monks and give them a sermon.û

Venerable sir, nowadays, monks are unruly do not accept advice with a good heart.û

Kassapa, in this manner in the past the elder monks were forest dwellers praising dwelling in the forest, were partakers of morsel food, praising partaking morsel food, were rag robe wearers praising the wearing of rag robes, were limited to three robes praising the limitation to three robes, with few desires ... re ... lived satisfied, ... re ... were secluded ... re ... had no associations ... re ... were with aroused effort, praising the arousing of effort.

Then for him, who was a forest dweller praising dwelling in the forest, was a partaker of morsel food, praising partaking morsel food, was a rag robe wearer praising the wearing of rag robes, was limited to three robes praising the limitation to three robes, was with few desires ... re ... lived satisfied, ... re ... was secluded ... re ... had no associations ... re ... was with aroused effort, praising the arousing of effort, the elder monks prepared a seat. And said, `Come, monk, what is the monk's name? Your appearance is good and you delight in the training. Monk, take a seat.'

Then, Kassapa it occurs to the novice monks: `Look this monk is a forest dweller who praises dwelling in the forest, is a partaker of morsel food, praising partaking morsel food, is a rag robe wearer praising the wearing of rag robes, is limited to three robes praising the limitation to three robes, is with few desires ... re ... is satisfied, ... re ... is secluded ... re ... has no associations ... re ... is with aroused effort, praising the arousing of effort. The elder monks prepare a seat for him and say ßcome monk, what is the monk's name?. Your appearance is good and you delight in the training `Monk, take a seat.û' The novice monks follow that method and it will be for their well being and happiness for a long time.

Kassapa, at present the elder monks are not forest dwellers, who praise dwelling in the forest, are not partakers of morsel food and do not praise partaking morsel food, are not rag robe wearers who praise wearing rag robes, are not limited to three robes praising the limitation to three robes, are not with few desires ... re ... are not satisfied, ... re. are not secluded ... re ... have associations ... re ... are not with aroused effort and do not praise the arousing of effort.

Then if there is a well-known, famous monk who is a gainer of robes, morsel food, dwellings and requisites when ill, the elder monks prepare a seat for him and say, `Come monk, what is the monk's name? Your appearance is good and we like your association. Monk, take a seat.'

Then Kassapa it occurs to the novice monks: `Look this monk is well-known, famous is a gainer of robes, morsel food, dwellings and requisites when ill, the elder monks prepare a seat for him and say ßcome monk, what is the monk's name? Your appearance is good and we like your association. ßMonk, take a seat.û' The novice monks follow that method and it will be for their ill being and unhappiness for a long time.

Kassapa, saying it correctly, the holy life is oppressed by those leading the holy life. Saying it correctly those who lead the holy life are oppressed by those leading the oppressed holy life.


http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html

[Hanzze]

From my personal experiances (as leader, businessman, NGO work, even teacher... ) movements (what ever there color is) always have the need to increase or implant a strong delusion, fiction or how ever one likes to call it. It is really not that difficult to greate movements if one knows how the mind is working. Even if this delusion (artificial view) is in accordiance with right intention, it is a reality, that only less people would get the message and develope right view out of it but use it for their selfish interests. It is of course possible to maintain such a movement if one has much power and patient, but as soon as the imput gets weaker, it colapses with the same intensity as the support that it has got before.
When we realize that and even walk on with the thought of "but it has right intention" we might come in conflict with what is called "animal business" or we can call it also "confidence trick". There is a reason why such Bodhisattvas need 1000 of arms, still yet not able to help a little or cause more harm as help at least. The times come when one is no more able to keep movements under control and there was not a single leader who did not have a good thought behind his action and motivation, but it was rarely complet.

Dhamma work is really quite different and there is no place of movements in a healthy growing Sangha. Such things will how ever be hurtfull sooner or later. There is much confidence required and much patient, especiall with one self, if one likes to change the ways of worldly life a little in a better direction. And I guess there are times and conditions where it is simply not possible, may the horns be as strong as horns can be. The horns need to break first and after that, I guess things run small, silent, quite and with ease, of couse only those with less dust in the eyes will see.

[yawares]

Dear Dawn...Yawares loves loves your stories
Dear Hanzze....Yawares so loves your SANGHA PORTRAIT...wonderful picture... make my heart jump with joy

[m0rl0ck]

Reading the linked article the movement sounds like the same kind of bipolar morality and ideology (forces of light vs forces of evil) that have made monotheism such a thorn in the side of humanity. It may be better than nothing at all, and i can see how this kind of thing appeals to people, but it seems like a huge ideological step backward from the traditional buddhist view. Any religion that divides the cosmos into good and evil in this way opens the door to every kind of persecution against those judged as "ungodly".

[Hanzze]

Ohh well, many people love such things, they are so beautiful. and you would not be able to explain anything of its danger. So it is with the attached mind. The other attached mind, does not see the beauty, is just attached to the danger, but its only beautiful and nothing happens right now in fact. What else could help if not