No morality in opposing abortion

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Cittasanto
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:32 am

Mr Man wrote:Slightly related - just came accross this "Australia PM Julia Gillard prompts 'misogyny' definition update" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19973687


I see wiki already has the definition and miriam webster just uses hatred as does collins and the american heritage dictionary.

I think words such as these aren't fixed in the sand. look at racist attitudes over the years, what was considered acceptable is now considered racist.

I wonder is they are going to redefine misandry to be in line with it?
“Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.
(The mendicants asked) What are the two [types of persons]?
(The Lord Buddha responded) The malicious, or the inwardly angry, and the one with (blind) faith or the one who holds things incorrectly.
Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.”
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
"Others will misconstrue reality based on personal perspectives, firmly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our personal perspectives, nor firmly holding them, but easily discarded."

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Will
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Will » Wed May 25, 2016 5:51 pm

Philosophical argument is not the same as knowing exactly how an abortion is performed.

This doctor performed over 1000 abortions, so he is qualified to describe, with video, just how they are done.

Some pro-choice people, after viewing the D&E video changed their minds to pro-life.

http://www.abortionprocedures.com
Buddhas proclaim the Dharma with one sound, each living being understands according to it kind.
Vimalakirti Sutra

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Modus.Ponens » Wed May 25, 2016 6:56 pm

I'm pro choice because I'm a secularist, so I don't think I have the right to impose my spiritual values on others given that I have no evidence supporting spiritual realities. And also because when something is inevitably going to happen, it's better for it to happen in safety. Abortion and drugs are two examples of this.

But I don't see misogyny here. The people who are against abortion, typically devout christians, are against it because human life is sacred to them. They speak of millions of babies murdered, and those who kill them _ the doctors, the women and the men who pressure women to do it. I've even heard the term Holocaust in relation to this.

Trying to frame this as misogyny is not intellectualy honest. Some pro life people may be misogynists. But what all of them actualy have in common is the underlying belief that when an abortion is done, a human soul is murdered. The revulsion they feel against this is why they are pro life. The differences between the two camps are largely about different views on wether the world is strictly material or not. Hate is not the is not the issue here.

Lack of compassion is not the same as hate. Indifference is somewhere in between the extremes of compassion and hate. Misogyny is one of those terms that are losing its meaning and effectiveness. Just like ill informed overuse of antibiotics creates super resistent bugs that may be hostile, ill informed overuse of the word misogyny will create a groups of people that are imune to it and may actually be hostile to women.
For example, Trump.

Use your antibiotics responsibly, lest it backfires in the long run.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Will
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Will » Wed May 25, 2016 7:31 pm

Too coin a phrase: 'A video is worth 10,000 words.'
Buddhas proclaim the Dharma with one sound, each living being understands according to it kind.
Vimalakirti Sutra

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samseva
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby samseva » Wed May 25, 2016 7:41 pm

Will wrote:Philosophical argument is not the same as knowing exactly how an abortion is performed.

This doctor performed over 1000 abortions, so he is qualified to describe, with video, just how they are done.

Some pro-choice people, after viewing the D&E video changed their minds to pro-life.

http://www.abortionprocedures.com

So basically, first and second trimester abortions are done by ripping the baby piece by piece while it is still alive, either by using a metal instrument or a vacuum.

In the third trimester, of which the baby could live if the mother were to give birth prematurely, abortionists inject a lethal poison, anywhere on the baby's body such as injecting the needle right into its skull, to kill it.

Shocking.

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby chownah » Thu May 26, 2016 5:36 am

Will wrote:Too coin a phrase: 'A video is worth 10,000 words.'

If by "worth" you mean the ability to elicit a strong emotional response then for most people you are correct. If you mean the ability to help people to discern the way things really are then it is probably a toss up beteen video and words.....with words having a slight edge in that words usually do not so strongly make us a pawn to our emotions.
chownah

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Will
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Will » Thu May 26, 2016 2:13 pm

chownah wrote:
Will wrote:Too coin a phrase: 'A video is worth 10,000 words.'

If by "worth" you mean the ability to elicit a strong emotional response then for most people you are correct. If you mean the ability to help people to discern the way things really are then it is probably a toss up beteen video and words.....with words having a slight edge in that words usually do not so strongly make us a pawn to our emotions.
chownah


The site also has words in the videos, plus interviews with an abortion doctor (he uses words).
Buddhas proclaim the Dharma with one sound, each living being understands according to it kind.
Vimalakirti Sutra

chownah
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby chownah » Thu May 26, 2016 3:16 pm

Will wrote:
chownah wrote:
Will wrote:Too coin a phrase: 'A video is worth 10,000 words.'

If by "worth" you mean the ability to elicit a strong emotional response then for most people you are correct. If you mean the ability to help people to discern the way things really are then it is probably a toss up beteen video and words.....with words having a slight edge in that words usually do not so strongly make us a pawn to our emotions.
chownah


The site also has words in the videos, plus interviews with an abortion doctor (he uses words).

I am not sure how your response is a comment on what I posted.

Which do you think creates a stronger emotional response, the visual part or the words?
chownah

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Will
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Will » Thu May 26, 2016 8:45 pm

chownah, Emotions were not my point, just concision, which a picture brings compared to a description.
Buddhas proclaim the Dharma with one sound, each living being understands according to it kind.
Vimalakirti Sutra

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Mr Man
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Mr Man » Thu May 26, 2016 9:28 pm

The original link to the article in the OP no longer works. Here is a new link if any one is interested in reading the article

http://www.bangkokpost.com/print/332113/

.

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Pondera
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Pondera » Fri May 27, 2016 1:06 am

Babies are a mess and bringing life into this world without the finances to support it or the planning to raise it is immoral. So, if you can't do the time - don't do the crime.

If you're stupid enough to not use contraception and you conceive - abortion is the killing of what would otherwise be a being - a sentient being with a potential life to live.

It's like uprooting a sapling from the forest. That sapling would have otherwise been a tree. By pulling it out of the ground you kill it and you kill it's future.

Plus, that sentient being is a karmic being. Are advocates of abortion in any position to say that the karmic consequence of this karmic being is to die in the womb? Or is the karmic consequence of this karmic being to see the outside of the womb and live out his karmic pay load like a good little prisoner of samsara?

Abortion is wrong. Anyone who's thought about it knows that. It's wrong in principle, but right in practice.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=RDdLIZdKwSqW0&params=OALAAQE%253D&v=dLIZdKwSqW0

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby _anicca_ » Fri May 27, 2016 3:44 am

So many opinions in this thread! Why not let them go??

:tongue:
One is not wise because one speaks much.
He who is peaceable, friendly, and fearless is called wise.
Dhammapada 19.258


:buddha1:

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby chownah » Fri May 27, 2016 4:12 am

Will wrote:chownah, Emotions were not my point, just concision, which a picture brings compared to a description.

I guess then we are both right.....videos are more concise than words and videos are more eliciting of emotional responses than words.

My opinion is that the video format was used for its emotional impact....although the fact is that I have not viewed the video. :jawdrop:
chownah
Edit: So, I went and watched the video.....definitely the visuals are for emotional impact. They really add nothing to the words presented except for emotional impact. It is sort of like watching a movie where someone is killed....it is designed for emotional impact but in reality no one was killed. The abortion video was designed for emotional impact and I will leave it up to the individual to decide if in this type of abortion anyone is killed.
chownah

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby samseva » Fri May 27, 2016 4:34 am

chownah wrote:Edit: So, I went and watched the video.....definitely the visuals are for emotional impact. They really add nothing to the words presented except for emotional impact. It is sort of like watching a movie where someone is killed....it is designed for emotional impact but in reality no one was killed. The abortion video was designed for emotional impact and I will leave it up to the individual to decide if in this type of abortion anyone is killed.
chownah

I thought it was mostly descriptive and objective, simply describing how abortions are done and quickly and only saying his opinion once at the end.

When you say no one was killed, do you mean that a baby is alive and conscious only a few weeks before the mother gives birth? Because 2nd trimester and especially 3rd trimester babies (where abortions are quite common) are of many weeks old.

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Mr Man
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby Mr Man » Fri May 27, 2016 7:27 am

A few questions to try and get this thread back towards the OP, which was revived from three years ago.

Is opposing abortion a moral obligation?

What are the knock on effects of not allowing/allowing abortion?

What can we do as a society to decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies and how can we give helpful support, which is a appropriate, to those who find themselves with unwanted pregnancies?

This is the last paragraph from the article -

"If you insist on talking sin, then at least let the ones who will bear the consequences of the sin make their own decisions. If they believe the mothers are just asking the souls who will be born as their children to wait until they are ready, who are you to intervene? And if your high moral ground ends up causing others injuries and deaths, whose sin is it going to be now? Think about it."

chownah
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby chownah » Fri May 27, 2016 10:47 am

samseva wrote:
chownah wrote:Edit: So, I went and watched the video.....definitely the visuals are for emotional impact. They really add nothing to the words presented except for emotional impact. It is sort of like watching a movie where someone is killed....it is designed for emotional impact but in reality no one was killed. The abortion video was designed for emotional impact and I will leave it up to the individual to decide if in this type of abortion anyone is killed.
chownah

I thought it was mostly descriptive and objective, simply describing how abortions are done and quickly and only saying his opinion once at the end.

When you say no one was killed, do you mean that a baby is alive and conscious only a few weeks before the mother gives birth? Because 2nd trimester and especially 3rd trimester babies (where abortions are quite common) are of many weeks old.

Perhaps I misunderstand you but I think you are saying that 3rd trimester abortions are quite common when in fact they are a very very small percentage of overall abortions the bulk of which are 1st trimester abortions.

Did you notice that the presenter refers to the fetus as a baby? Do you think that the term 'baby' will elicit a stronger emotional reaction or the term 'fetus'?
chownah

SarathW
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby SarathW » Sat May 28, 2016 1:24 am

The people who are against abortion, typically devout christians, are against it because human life is sacred to them.


People who are against not only Christians.
See how Muslims are opposing this as well.
It appears abortion is advertise as an economic solution in India.


See counter 5.5 of the video.


“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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tiltbillings
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 28, 2016 2:08 am

_anicca_ wrote:So many opinions in this thread! Why not let them go??

:tongue:
So many opinions? Well, because it has to do with women, their reproductive rights and with sex, all very vexed questions for many men, in particular, and for those who are rather rigid and literal in their interpretations of the religions that they cleave to. Letting the opinions go would not be a bad idea.

Mr Man's msg bears repeating, and hopefully (against all odds), this thread an get back on track.

For future contributors, keep this thread in task, or the msgs will go away. The following by Mr Man is a good directive for focusing the this back what the OP's initial thrust was:



Mr Man wrote:A few questions to try and get this thread back towards the OP, which was revived from three years ago.

Is opposing abortion a moral obligation?

What are the knock on effects of not allowing/allowing abortion?

What can we do as a society to decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies and how can we give helpful support, which is a appropriate, to those who find themselves with unwanted pregnancies?

This is the last paragraph from the article -

"If you insist on talking sin, then at least let the ones who will bear the consequences of the sin make their own decisions. If they believe the mothers are just asking the souls who will be born as their children to wait until they are ready, who are you to intervene? And if your high moral ground ends up causing others injuries and deaths, whose sin is it going to be now? Think about it."
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby robertk » Sat May 28, 2016 3:02 am

"If you insist on talking sin, then at least let the ones who will bear the consequences of the sin make their own decisions. If they believe the mothers are just asking the souls who will be born as their children to wait until they are ready, who are you to intervene? And if your high moral ground ends up causing others injuries and deaths, whose sin is it going to be now? Think about it."


I couldn't understand this part about souls and sin and waiting until ready>?. Can mr man or tilt explain what it means for this forum.

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tiltbillings
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Re: No morality in opposing abortion

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 28, 2016 3:16 am

robertk wrote:
"If you insist on talking sin, then at least let the ones who will bear the consequences of the sin make their own decisions. If they believe the mothers are just asking the souls who will be born as their children to wait until they are ready, who are you to intervene? And if your high moral ground ends up causing others injuries and deaths, whose sin is it going to be now? Think about it."


I couldn't understand this part about souls and sin and waiting until ready>?. Can mr man or tilt explain what it means for this forum.
You are saying you have no idea what these terms might mean, either in a very specific way, or in a more general figurative way?
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723


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