A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in death

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BlackBird
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A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in death

Post by BlackBird »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -City.html

This kind of thing should be banned in the west. Poor babies, metta to them.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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SDC
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by SDC »

Wow, that practice is ridiculous.
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manas
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by manas »

BlackBird wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -City.html

This kind of thing should be banned in the west. Poor babies, metta to them.
The persons who actually perform that vile act should be jailed, not just for endangering the child with an unhygienic procedure, but also for indecent contact with a minor. But it's America, and it could fall under that bit in the Constitution protecting 'religious freedom'. So I am sorry to say, it will probably just keep going on, so long as there are persons fanatical and twisted enough to put the words in an archaic book, above basic human decency.

:anjali:
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BlackBird
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by BlackBird »

Well I dunno, even though it's disgusting and inappropriate, I don't think there's a sexual element to it. To me, the problem is they are knowingly endangering the lives of their children, risking giving them brain damage, or at the very least herpes.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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manas
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by manas »

BlackBird wrote:Well I dunno, even though it's disgusting and inappropriate, I don't think there's a sexual element to it. To me, the problem is they are knowingly endangering the lives of their children, risking giving them brain damage, or at the very least herpes.
I am not claiming to know whether the minds of the performers of that vile act have a sexual thought in them at that time, or not - only they can know that. But I will say that the children will probably be left with psychological scars from it, and so yes it is a form of child abuse, albeit sanctioned by religion.

Some might argue that it's ok, the babies won't recall the nasty man sucking blood from their penises. Well there are two ways to look at that. Firstly, some people can remember even very early events in life. Secondly, it can be the traumatic things that happened, that you can't recall, that can harm you the most. They can really impact on a person's psychological and emotional wellbeing later on.

Anyway, I've read this, said my bit, and will let it go now. There's Dhamma to cultivate. I agree with you that it has no place in our modern (or any) society.

kind regards :anjali:
Last edited by manas on Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BlackBird
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by BlackBird »

manas wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Well I dunno, even though it's disgusting and inappropriate, I don't think there's a sexual element to it. To me, the problem is they are knowingly endangering the lives of their children, risking giving them brain damage, or at the very least herpes.
I am not claiming to know whether the minds of the performers of that vile act have a sexual thought in them at that time, or not - only they can know that. But I will say that the children will probably be left with psychological scars from it, and so yes it is a form of child abuse, albeit sanctioned by religion.

:anjali:
They're babies man. I don't think they'll remember it.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by Modus.Ponens »

BlackBird wrote:
manas wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Well I dunno, even though it's disgusting and inappropriate, I don't think there's a sexual element to it. To me, the problem is they are knowingly endangering the lives of their children, risking giving them brain damage, or at the very least herpes.
I am not claiming to know whether the minds of the performers of that vile act have a sexual thought in them at that time, or not - only they can know that. But I will say that the children will probably be left with psychological scars from it, and so yes it is a form of child abuse, albeit sanctioned by religion.

:anjali:
They're babies man. I don't think they'll remember it.
That can be said to justify other forms of abuse, sexual or not, of babies. On the safe side, it should be prohibited.
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BlackBird
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by BlackBird »

Modus.Ponens wrote: That can be said to justify other forms of abuse, sexual or not, of babies. On the safe side, it should be prohibited.
It shouldn't be used to justify anything and I agree, it should be prohibited.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Ben
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by Ben »

Yeah, I read about it this morning and my first reaction was revulsion.
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Alex123
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by Alex123 »

These disgusting things along with female genital mutilation and others is why I believe that religion can actually be harmful.

It is one thing to believe in fairy tales.
But it is totally different to force one's views and practices on others, in this case on defenseless children. This is horrible!
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by DNS »

Alex123 wrote: It is one thing to believe in fairy tales.
But it is totally different to force one's views and practices on others, in this case on defenseless children. This is horrible!
I agree. Religious freedom is good, but not when it impinges on another person's freedom and/or safety; be it these acts (mentioned in this thread), female circumcision, child-brides, refusing to give medical treatment to your children (relying only on "prayer" to heal), etc. It is always the fanatics, the fundamentalists in all religions who go to these extremes and actually do harm against someone's will or to a child who has no say in the acts.
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Dan74
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by Dan74 »

Sorry to be a devil's advocate here, but I think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion.

The injuries from what I could gather are extremely rare. The long-term consequences of being circumcised are not trauma and lack of sexual function, if anything they are positive or neutral. The sucking of the blood out is how it was done in ancient times to prevent infection (hasn't your grandmother done a similar thing after you cut your finger as a child?), and we should be careful not to project any sexualized notions onto it. This is our baggage, not necessarily theirs.

Of course it is tragic for the little one and the family. But do we ask our babies before we vaccinate them? I know people will cry out at this analogy - vaccination prevents disease and circumcision is just a barbaric tradition, right? Well, maybe we should examine our views and priorities and recognize that they are not absolute. Some people decry the use of vaccinations, even professionals. And to some, doing god's bidding is more important than life, let alone health. Are they necessarily poorer for it? I am not so sure.
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BlackBird
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by BlackBird »

Hi Dan.

The practice involves (unless I and the article are mistaken) putting one's mouth and saliva (filled with bacteria) onto an open wound on the babies penis. This is a medically dangerous practice, and it really doesn't matter how rare it is, 2 babies have died from it, and others have suffered brain damage.

That is enough in my opinion that the practice should be banned lest a third baby is taken from this world over an archaic religious ritual.
I don't think one can place a value on human life, it is of infinite value in my opinion at least, and so the practice should be banned.

with metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by DNS »

Hi Dan,

I don't think anyone (as far as I can tell) said circumcision is barbaric, just that the way these cases are handled in unsanitary conditions. The "jury is still out" about the positive and / or negative impacts (if any) of circumcision. I think circumcision should still be allowed if the parents want to do this, but with sanitary conditions under the procedure of a medical professional.
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Dan74 wrote:Sorry to be a devil's advocate here, but I think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion.

The injuries from what I could gather are extremely rare. The long-term consequences of being circumcised are not trauma and lack of sexual function, if anything they are positive or neutral. The sucking of the blood out is how it was done in ancient times to prevent infection (hasn't your grandmother done a similar thing after you cut your finger as a child?), and we should be careful not to project any sexualized notions onto it. This is our baggage, not necessarily theirs.

Of course it is tragic for the little one and the family. But do we ask our babies before we vaccinate them? I know people will cry out at this analogy - vaccination prevents disease and circumcision is just a barbaric tradition, right? Well, maybe we should examine our views and priorities and recognize that they are not absolute. Some people decry the use of vaccinations, even professionals. And to some, doing god's bidding is more important than life, let alone health. Are they necessarily poorer for it? I am not so sure.
The problem is that the child is not consenting to this practice. And medicine can probably prevent infection better than the way the radical jews are doing it. Of course it is very likely that there is no sexual motivation for this act. However, I see no reason, other than religious zeal, to perform this type of act after the circumcision.

The circumcision itself is horrible, imo. The child also has rights and, as David says, we can't let religious radicals impose their faith to their children in a way that offends their physical integrity. If adults want to pray to god and reject medicine to treat their illness, they have that right. But they can't impose that option on their children. The same with jehova's witnesses and blood transfusion. And the same with female and male circumcision.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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