Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

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Sam Vara
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:03 am

tiltbillings wrote:
my point was not that Thatcher's administrations were in anyone's interests, but that they were as mandated and legitimate as many other post-war examples
And so was the election of George W. Bush, but the sequelae has been in no one's best interest except the wealthy. Thatcher was lucky to have had the North Sea oil revenues to buffer the impact of her horrible reign of conservative ugliness, but England is paying the price now. Alas.


Alas, indeed. The world doesn't obey my rules, either.

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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby piotr » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:18 am

Hi,

I liked her.
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Coyote » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:42 am

piotr wrote:Hi,

I liked her.


May I ask why? Was it her policies or her as an individual, or something else?

Metta
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Mr Man » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:53 am

piotr wrote:Hi,

I liked her.


I guess you didn't have a relative on the belgrano or a relative who worked as a miner. What did you like about her? That she stopped free milk for school kids or that she destroyed local government and sold of the council housing stock. Or that she started the privatisation of essential services?

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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby andrewuk » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:31 pm

Krugman Takes on Thatcher's Legacy as Debate Rages
Published: Tuesday, 9 Apr 2013 | 6:52 AM ET
By: Kiran Moodley, special to CNBC.com

New York Times columnist Paul Krugman, scourge of monetary hawks and austerity-believers alike, has entered the tense debate on Margaret Thatcher's legacy and already drawn the ire of HSBC's chief economist.

In his latest "Conscience of a Liberal" blog post, Krugman admitted Thatcher turned the economy around, but argued that any benefits that emerged from her transformations occurred long after her period in office.
"If anyone tells you that Thatcher saved the British economy," Krugman wrote, "you should ask why the results of that salvation took so very long to materialize."

Krugman also made a snide attack on the rise of London's financial sector and the "rise of fancy finance," something brought on by Thatcher's 1980s deregulation.

Krugman's view was instantly challenged by HSBC's chief economist Stephen King, who tweeted, "Totally bizarre blog by @NYTimeskrugman on Thatcherism....no mention whatsoever of inflation." (Read More: Margaret Thatcher's Greatest Moments)

King also took on Jonathan Portes, the director of the U.K.'s National Institute of Economic and Social Research, for only focusing on the rise of out-of-work benefit claimants during Thatcher's 11 years in power.

According to King, Thatcher's overriding impact on the U.K. economy was to bring down inflation, which he said was the major macro-economic problem of the late 1970s.

It isn't the first time that Krugman has waded into controversy across the Atlantic. He's been previously criticized for his opinions the Austrian and Latvian economies.

While Thatcher's death has led to an outpouring of sympathy from all sides of the international political spectrum, a glance at Britain's front pages shows the scale of divisiveness over Thatcher's legacy at home.

Headlines have varied from: "The woman who saved Britain" to "The woman who tore Britain apart."

Krugman does, however, give Thatcher some credit which will please her supporters.

"There is no question that Britain did turn around," Krugman wrote. "In the 1970s it was a country with huge economic problems; today, despite the failure of austerity policies, it's in a much stronger position."

Even opponents of Thatcher admit some change was needed. Tony Travers of the London School of Economics told CNBC that, "if you talk privately to many Labour politicians, they will admit Thatcher changed the economy in ways that although they didn't do it, in the end, they accept would have had to have happened."

Economic Legacy: Speed of Change

Many criticize the speed with which Thatcher brought these changes to the U.K. economy, and stress that despite the common belief that the Iron Lady "rolled back the state," the size of government did in fact expand during her tenure.

Portes, who also came under fire from King, said the current debate about Britain's huge benefits network has much to do with the devastation Thatcher brought to British communities.

(Read More: Kudlow: Margaret Thatcher, Freedom and Free Markets)

"When she came to power in 1979 there were two million on out-of-work benefits," Portes argued. "By the mid-1990s there were six million; four million extra people on out-of-work benefits. The problems we're dealing with today, we're talking about dealing with the legacy of Thatcher."

Travers agreed with Portes, arguing that her changes left some parts of the U.K. that are still under-performing today. For Travers and Portes, the speed of Britain's economic transformation, that left little help for ex-miners to find new, gainful unemployment, was a devastating political decision on her part.

But Peter Toogood of Old Broad Street Research said Thatcher, "got blamed for things that were going to happen either that decade, or the following decade, or the one after. The inevitability of what went on in our industrializing sector was there to see. Yes, the French still have an industrial sector but it's in decline."

"Those industries were going to die."

Tim Knox of the Center for Policy Studies, a think-tank co-founded by Margaret Thatcher and her policy-guru Keith Joseph, said that in Thatcher's legacy was squandered by the New Labour government of Tony Blair.

"People talk about Blair being the heir to Thatcher," he said. "Well, he was a very weak heir if that is the case. Don't forget that he inherited a golden economic legacy in 1997, mainly because of the reforms of the Thatcher period, a golden legacy that was effectively squandered within eight years." (Read More: Did Thatcher's Reforms Pave Way for Euro Zone?)

As economists bicker over Thatcher's impact, Satyajit Das, the author of "Traders, Guns & Money," offered a fittingly balanced conclusion on Thatcher.

"Well, I think there are certain people in financial markets in England who should thank her very deeply from the bottoms of their hearts today," Das told CNBC, "because without her I suspect the big bang which deregulated the English financial system wouldn't have occurred."

However, Das said the financial crisis of 2008 made that legacy highly dubious – which along with her social impact on Britain, made it difficult for us today to find an accurate way to evaluate Thatcher.

"I think I'll leave it to historians in a couple of hundred years to say whether it was all for the good or all for the bad. But I agree with sentiment that she was her own woman and she certainly divided opinion."
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piotr
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby piotr » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:31 pm

Hi,

Yes I liked her character & some of her policies more than characters and policies of her contemporaries.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Mr Man » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:41 pm

Her main opposition contemporary was Michael Foot who was a thoroughly descent man. The labour party at that time was a great party with policies like unilateral nuclear disarmament and still had a strong connection with the working class. He was systematically smeared by murdoch and thatchers cronies.

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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Mr Man » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:45 pm

Kinock would also have been better for the UK

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piotr
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby piotr » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Hi Mr Man,

I think that one of reasons of our disagreement is perspective. Yours was West, mine was from behind of the Iron Curtain.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Dan74 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:50 pm

Mr Man wrote:Her main opposition contemporary was Michael Foot who was a thoroughly descent man. The labour party at that time was a great party with policies like unilateral nuclear disarmament and still had a strong connection with the working class. He was systematically smeared by murdoch and thatchers cronies.


I may be wrong about Piotr, but people from the old USSR often have an instinctive dislike of anyone to the left of centre since they are associated with the "Communists." Thatcher projected confidence and conviction and many people admired her for that. Though I can think of a few other political figures who did too (one of them met his (un)timely end 2 years and a few weeks ago, for example) and these qualities alone are not enough to earn respect, IMO.
_/|\_

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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Mr Man » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:21 pm

Hi poitr
That would make sense. I was a 16 year old living in London when she came to power.

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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Aloka » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:39 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Thatcher was lucky to have had the North Sea oil revenues to buffer the impact of her horrible reign of conservative ugliness, but England is paying the price now. Alas.


Indeed - and the once thriving mining communities in the North have never recovered . England is paying the price of Thatcher's reign in more ways than one . ...and will probably sink further into recession and hardship for the man in the street, thanks to the present conservative government being totally out of touch with ordinary working people and their needs. I won't even mention the increasing demise of the NHS.....

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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby piotr » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:16 pm

Hi Dan,

Dan74 wrote:I may be wrong about Piotr, but people from the old USSR often have an instinctive dislike of anyone to the left of centre since they are associated with the "Communists." Thatcher projected confidence and conviction and many people admired her for that.


This is true for a lot of people from Eastern Europe but I'm more concrete than this (not to mention I'm able to distinguish a social democrat from a communist). For example unilateral nuclear disarmament mentioned by Mr Man would be a disaster for us if it had been carried out.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby manas » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:22 pm

piotr wrote:Hi Dan,

Dan74 wrote:I may be wrong about Piotr, but people from the old USSR often have an instinctive dislike of anyone to the left of centre since they are associated with the "Communists." Thatcher projected confidence and conviction and many people admired her for that.


This is true for a lot of people from Eastern Europe but I'm more concrete than this (not to mention I'm able to distinguish a social democrat from a communist). For example unilateral nuclear disarmament mentioned by Mr Man would be a disaster for us if it had been carried out.


Correct. Every nuclear armed state ought to fully disarm, not just one in isolation, but everyone; beginning with those who have the biggest stockpile of bombs. That would put the United States and Russia as the ones with the biggest responsibility to set a good example, and do more 'mutual disarmament' deals. And, instead of pointing at Iran shouting, "look, they *might* have a bomb!!! we will have to invade them!!!" the United States should really take a look at reducing their own arsenal first (not to mention Israel's). A real case of 'seeing the splinter in their neighbour's eye, and missing the log in their own'...(to quote J.C.)

kind regards :anjali:

(edit: when I criticise the 'United States' I am of course not criticising it's people as a whole, but rather, those forces / interests who seem to be steering it in the wrong direction, towards conflicts that do not need to take place. I am aware that there are many individuals in the U.S. who do not agree with what their corporate-controlled government is doing. There are a lot of good, ordinary people in the States whom I respect. My criticism is not addressed to them.)

metta

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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby purple planet » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:46 pm

Iran is a bad country - i really have a full list to explain why but i try to avoid politics - israel nuclear wepon saved lots and lots of lives - even if you dont count israel peoples - it saved the lives of all the people who would have died in a war that 100% it would have broken if israel didnt have nuclear bombs -

I dont have the power to say stuff im not sure of so i wont say nothing about the u.s - but iran is threatening to attack israel - israel is not threatening to attack iran that is enough reason to support country A instead of B - i see this as a basic

and another thing to say we are going to attack iran is more of a threat - a threat that if it would have been said more clearly by both israel and the u.s - this whole story would be behind us - this makes a situation where people who were in favor of "talks" with iran about the subject - only made the likelihood of an attack more real - its a shame more people dont see thing like this - its not even my israeli point of view :

from an iranian point of view - if the u.s and israel would have threatened to attack unitly and strongly - with no talks and extremely strong economic boycot - this was all over - the iranian economy wouldnt have been as bad as it is now ect ect ...
even without the attack option- if the world would have united and boycotted iran as strong as now at the start it all would have ended already - and by the way iran would have 99% would have got a bomb by now - the reason they dont is because of the sanctions - killing of nuclear scientists - mysterious explosions - threats to attack ( by the way the more hard the threats the less kiling boycotting ect .. you need to do - so i think whoever does the hard talk is doing good and all the politicians who try to be politily correct are sacrificing the iranian people so they could look "humane" and not "nationalists"
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Dan74 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:24 pm

It may be a good time to lock this thread, folks, before it gets ugly.

I think these issues are not as clear cut as many people in the West think they are. For instance the way things are reported differs widely not just between the US and Iran, but between Western democracies like the US, in various European countries and Australia, hence variations in public opinion and support. Is this much different to the brainwashing we frown at that is happening in other places?
_/|\_


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