Edward Snowden, an American hero

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby Modus.Ponens » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:09 pm

alan wrote:I'm about as liberal as you can get as far as American politics are concerned, but let's face it--by now, everyone knows electronic media is surveilled.
This guy made a big fuss, wasted his future, and accomplished nothing. Seems more like a loser than a hero.


So if Ghandi were to be crushed by the English and fail in the independence of India, he would be nothing but a loser? :shrug:

PS: I know Snowden is not Ghandi. Just an analogy.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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IanAnd
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby IanAnd » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:09 pm

Without surveillance on its own citizens how could nations neutralize internal terrorist threats or combat well-organized crime?

This is quite ironic when the current U.S. government (since the 1860s) has been and is the most organized crime syndicate on earth. Lincoln put an end to de jure government in the united States when in March of 1861 the Congress adjourned sine die (from the Latin "without day;" means "without assigning a day for a further meeting or hearing"), and has never since then re-adjourned under law. The U.S. has been run under Executive Emergency Rule ever since (something that is not in the Constitution and is therefore unlawful). What we have is a de facto federal government which operates outside the Constitution. The U.S. federal government is run by a corporate elite, long since having been unaccountable to the People.

Those brave enough to look into the real history of America (and not the propaganda taught in the Public schools) will easily be able to confirm this for themselves.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

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Ben
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby Ben » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:39 pm

IanAnd wrote:
Without surveillance on its own citizens how could nations neutralize internal terrorist threats or combat well-organized crime?

This is quite ironic when the current U.S. government (since the 1860s) has been and is the most organized crime syndicate on earth. Lincoln put an end to de jure government in the united States when in March of 1861 the Congress adjourned sine die (from the Latin "without day;" means "without assigning a day for a further meeting or hearing"), and has never since then re-adjourned under law. The U.S. has been run under Executive Emergency Rule ever since (something that is not in the Constitution and is therefore unlawful). What we have is a de facto federal government which operates outside the Constitution. The U.S. federal government is run by a corporate elite, long since having been unaccountable to the People.

Those brave enough to look into the real history of America (and not the propaganda taught in the Public schools) will easily be able to confirm this for themselves.


And what I find ironic, dear Ian, is that intelligent people like you believe in this anemic conspiratorial drivel. It beggers belief.
If the political situation in the united states is so bad then may I suggest you do something about it. Afterall, it is a representative and responsible democracy not a totalitarian state.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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tiltbillings
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:32 am

Ben wrote: is that intelligent people like you believe in this anemic conspiratorial drivel. It beggers belief.
Not at all. And with the continued browning of America -- and now with gay marriage -- the anemic conspiratorial drivel is only going to get worse.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby lyndon taylor » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:00 am

I would have expected more enlightened responses!!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:45 am

lyndon taylor wrote:I would have expected more enlightened responses!!!!
And what would a "more enlightened response" look like?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby lyndon taylor » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:20 am

Perhaps comparing it to 1984, and how, while they claim it is only being used against terrorists now, they have the infastructure to spy on anyone and everyone they please, in the future even buddhists could be the target, or fringes of either political parties, depending on who's in charge. It sets a very bad precedent for free speech, some thing increasingly the courts are ruling is not a right anymore.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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tiltbillings
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:22 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Perhaps comparing it to 1984, and how, while they claim it is only being used against terrorists now, they have the infastructure to spy on anyone and everyone they please, in the future even buddhists could be the target, or fringes of either political parties, depending on who's in charge. It sets a very bad precedent for free speech, some thing increasingly the courts are ruling is not a right anymore.
What do you think is actually being done?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Mr Man
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby Mr Man » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:16 am

tiltbillings wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Perhaps comparing it to 1984, and how, while they claim it is only being used against terrorists now, they have the infastructure to spy on anyone and everyone they please, in the future even buddhists could be the target, or fringes of either political parties, depending on who's in charge. It sets a very bad precedent for free speech, some thing increasingly the courts are ruling is not a right anymore.
What do you think is actually being done?

I don't think people actually know what is being done and this is one of the problems. I would speculate that large databases are being built profiling the citizenship and as tax payer I'm not convinced that this is the best use of my money or the best method for dealing with terrorism, crime etc. I would also imagine that information is used to help certain groupings vested interests and agendas.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:20 am

Mr Man wrote:I don't think people actually know what is being done and this is one of the problems. I would speculate that large databases are being built profiling the citizenship and as tax payer I'm not convinced that this is the best use of my money or the best method for dealing with terrorism, crime etc. I would also imagine that information is used to help certain groupings vested interests and agendas.
In other words, you have not really been reading what has been written about what is going on. There a fair amount of good info out there.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Mr Man
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby Mr Man » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:37 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:I don't think people actually know what is being done and this is one of the problems. I would speculate that large databases are being built profiling the citizenship and as tax payer I'm not convinced that this is the best use of my money or the best method for dealing with terrorism, crime etc. I would also imagine that information is used to help certain groupings vested interests and agendas.
In other words, you have not really been reading what has been written about what is going on. There a fair amount of good info out there.


I wouldn't say that. I follow the UK news (to some extent). It seems like the UK intelligence services have been storing general internet traffic and are saying that correct procedure is being followed to search within that stored data. The impression of many here is that our Foreign Secretary William Hague is not being truthful or is not properly in control (or aware) of how this stored information is being accessed/used/shared.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:48 am

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:I don't think people actually know what is being done and this is one of the problems. I would speculate that large databases are being built profiling the citizenship and as tax payer I'm not convinced that this is the best use of my money or the best method for dealing with terrorism, crime etc. I would also imagine that information is used to help certain groupings vested interests and agendas.
In other words, you have not really been reading what has been written about what is going on. There a fair amount of good info out there.


I wouldn't say that. I follow the UK news (to some extent). It seems like the UK intelligence services have been storing general internet traffic and are saying that correct procedure is being followed to search within that stored data. The impression of many here is that our Foreign Secretary William Hague is not being truthful or is not properly in control (or aware) of how this stored information is being accessed/used/shared.
The impression. Fear mongering?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby lyndon taylor » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:54 am

Vs burying your head in the sand!!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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tiltbillings
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:57 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Vs burying your head in the sand!!!!
Not that you have shown. Again, what is being done?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Mr Man
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby Mr Man » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:08 am

tiltbillings wrote:The impression. Fear mongering?


Why do you think it is fear mongering?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:29 am

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The impression. Fear mongering?


Why do you think it is fear mongering?
You don't think it is?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Mr Man
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby Mr Man » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:03 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The impression. Fear mongering?


Why do you think it is fear mongering?
You don't think it is?


Hi Tilt
I'm not 100% sure what the "it" is that you are referring to? My post?

I think it is right to have concerns about how our private information is accessed and used. And also for what reasons. I think it is also right and responsible to question the actions of institutions that represent us or that which we are a part of. In the UK many intuitions have shown that they are incapable of storing data in a responsible way. They have also shown us that they will use data/surveillance in inappropriate/illegal ways. We have been misled by our Govt. and our Govt. has shown that it is not averse to acting for the benefit of it's members/vested interests. Those at the helm have shown that they are not always aware, or capable of understanding the actions, of those in the crew.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:06 am

Mr Man wrote: . . .
Again, what is being done by the US government that warrants all this concern?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby lyndon taylor » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:23 am

Whatya, you work for the NSA or something, this is major major mess up, thank goodness Snowden had the nerve to make us aware of what is going on, this has so little to do with terrorism and everything to do with controlling the masses and feeding information to the corporations.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Mr Man
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Re: Edward Snowden, an American hero

Postby Mr Man » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:26 am

Well I think the discussion is branching out and a particular instance is just a symptom of a larger phenomena but in the case of prism US agencies have obtained direct access to Google, facebook etc. Now to buy into your "fear mongering" accusation what if a McCarthyesque Govt. was to come into power or what if you already actually had one.


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