Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance and Wi

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:40 am

lyndon taylor wrote:I agree with Modens, Obama may be a lot better than some Republican alternative, but he's still basically a bad president, so far to the right, and in the pocket of big corporations, that calling himserlf a democrat is a bit of a stretch, it seems the powers that be saw the country was wanting a democrat so they entered a Republican calling himself a democrat, same with Bill Clinton, and I suspect Hillary, when democrats rush to defend such a president its evident they just want a democrat in name, not policy........
{{{yawn}}}
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:49 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote: But it seems that I know enough to make two points that are not being proven false by anybody.
Bovine coproforms. The problems you are not addressing, don't understand/don't know are the historical problems that Obama is facing. Obama has addressed these problems of inequality in terms of speeches and in policies, but somehow or another -- according to you -- for Obama not to be a bad president he must convince enough people of the issues you think are important so that things will radically change. That things have not radically changed according to your liking, he is a bad president -- according you. But then that is just an opinion that does not take into account what it is that Obama is actually facing, an opinion that carries no weight.

When you make a comment such as this -- "The republicans are raging fascists!" -- you have no comprehension of what is going on.


Ok. That's more to the point, although still not there. You argue that it's a cultural problem, so it seems. That's not good enough, imo. These things I find important are actualy crucial: one is about life or death situations the poor have to face without help; I wouldn't want to be in that situation nor do I want any of my countrymen in that situation; the other could solve the budget problem, which I think it's crucial. If he cannot solve these problems adequately he's not a good president. I would admit that this would be hard to do, was it not the fact that these things are so obviously wrong and brutaly unfair, that if he can't push this forward, in my definition, no he's not a good president.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:56 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ignorance of what the situation actually is. He is not a bad president. He is a president that is in a bad situation, much of which is out of his control, much of which has to do with forces that have been at play for some long while. He is a president that has moved things forward, while the atavistic forces are pushing back against that changes that are to them extremely fearsome. The USA is changing, it is browning, it is becoming more tolerant, but there are those who find this frightening, there are those who will exploit this fear for power and money. What we are seeing with America is a fascinating struggle as it pushes forward. Obama is not a bad president. While he is far from perfect, his pushing the social agenda of health care and equality, and his twice being elected, point to, for all the turmoil and struggle, something good going on here.


I think this is where you tried to make an actual argument. Can you please point out where, in this text, it's explained why he didn't convince the large majority of americans that dying because you are poor, and have no money to treat an illness, is unacceptable? Can you also point out in the text where it says why he wasn't able to convince the majority of americans that the rich paying less taxes than the poor is unfair and obscene?
Why he did not convince the majority? Because he cannot make a good speech if his life depended upon it, never really addressing the issues. And he has no influence on the members of his own party to get his policies implemented. And he really did not deserve to be re-elected. What the hell is his problem? It should have been easy sailing for him, the first African-American elected president, but it turns out he is just a stumble-bum, tripping over his own feet. And never, ever, ever mind any other factors at play.

Interesting, however, he did convince the majority of the voters to re-elect him, and trying to dismiss that by characterizing his opponent as an un-electable loonie is not to really address what actually took place during the campaign, what was said. The problem is that you have no argument, just an ill-formed opinion based not upon the realities of American political history.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:31 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Ok. That's more to the point, although still not there. You argue that it's a cultural problem, so it seems. That's not good enough, imo. These things I find important are actualy crucial: one is about life or death situations the poor have to face without help; I wouldn't want to be in that situation nor do I want any of my countrymen in that situation; the other could solve the budget problem, which I think it's crucial. If he cannot solve these problems adequately he's not a good president. I would admit that this would be hard to do, was it not the fact that these things are so obviously wrong and brutaly unfair, that if he can't push this forward, in my definition, no he's not a good president.
Jesus Key-ryest. You really do not get it. Obama is the president. He is not a dictator, ruling by fiat. He has to work with the Congress, and the Republican wing of the Congress has very publicly stated early on, and showed clearly by their actions, that their goal was to make him a one term president, denying him as much as possible any success. Despite Obama's willingness to compromise, to negotiate, willingness to work with the Republicans, they would have none of it, to the point of damaging the very country they were sworn to serve. If you actually understood how the American system worked, you would understand that these problem do not rest -- never rest -- solely with the POTUS to solve. Again, the fact that he was re-elected, running on a platform of health care and tax reform, among other things, points to a fair degree of success in convincing a majority of Americans of the need for the things you are whining about as not being done by Obama.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:34 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ignorance of what the situation actually is. He is not a bad president. He is a president that is in a bad situation, much of which is out of his control, much of which has to do with forces that have been at play for some long while. He is a president that has moved things forward, while the atavistic forces are pushing back against that changes that are to them extremely fearsome. The USA is changing, it is browning, it is becoming more tolerant, but there are those who find this frightening, there are those who will exploit this fear for power and money. What we are seeing with America is a fascinating struggle as it pushes forward. Obama is not a bad president. While he is far from perfect, his pushing the social agenda of health care and equality, and his twice being elected, point to, for all the turmoil and struggle, something good going on here.


I think this is where you tried to make an actual argument. Can you please point out where, in this text, it's explained why he didn't convince the large majority of americans that dying because you are poor, and have no money to treat an illness, is unacceptable? Can you also point out in the text where it says why he wasn't able to convince the majority of americans that the rich paying less taxes than the poor is unfair and obscene?
Why he did not convince the majority? Because he cannot make a good speech if his life depended upon it, never really addressing the issues. And he has no influence on the members of his own party to get his policies implemented. And he really did not deserve to be re-elected. What the hell is his problem? It should have been easy sailing for him, the first African-American elected president, but it turns out he is just a stumble-bum, tripping over his own feet. And never, ever, ever mind any other factors at play.

Interesting, however, he did convince the majority of the voters to re-elect him, and trying to dismiss that by characterizing his opponent as an un-electable loonie is not to really address what actually took place during the campaign, what was said. The problem is that you have no argument, just an ill-formed opinion based not upon the realities of American political history.


Large majority, not just majority. That's the thing. He has to reach enough of the republican voters so that republican politicians have to shut up. If the language these people understand is "Jesus", he could have used it for an actualy good purpose without lying. He also has to put a leash on Fox "News". Maybe it's too late for that part. Anyway, I admit that the taxes thing is harder, but it's still a sufficiently blatant injustice to be knocked down.

You have some of the faults you point out to others when arguing. Only now you've adressed the point, although not satisfactorily. You misquoted me. You made a straw man. And you don't represent well my opinion. I clearly said he had merit. It's just not good enough. If you are the most powerful man in the world be prepared to be held to the highest standards.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Ok. That's more to the point, although still not there. You argue that it's a cultural problem, so it seems. That's not good enough, imo. These things I find important are actualy crucial: one is about life or death situations the poor have to face without help; I wouldn't want to be in that situation nor do I want any of my countrymen in that situation; the other could solve the budget problem, which I think it's crucial. If he cannot solve these problems adequately he's not a good president. I would admit that this would be hard to do, was it not the fact that these things are so obviously wrong and brutaly unfair, that if he can't push this forward, in my definition, no he's not a good president.
Jesus Key-ryest. You really do not get it. Obama is the president. He is not a dictator, ruling by fiat. He has to work with the Congress, and the Republican wing of the Congress has very publicly stated early on, and showed clearly by their actions, that their goal was to make him a one term president, denying him as much as possible any success. Despite Obama's willingness to compromise, to negotiate, willingness to work with the Republicans, they would have none of it, to the point of damaging the very country they were sworn to serve. If you actually understood how the American system worked, you would understand that these problem do not rest -- never rest -- solely with the POTUS to solve. Again, the fact that he was re-elected, running on a platform of health care and tax reform, among other things, points to a fair degree of success in convincing a majority of Americans of the need for the things you are whining about as not being done by Obama.


Large majority. I'm aware of the existence of the congress. That's why he needs to reach republican voters. People who are poor and are being brainwashed to defend the interests of the people who explore them. That has to be his target.

I don't consider defending that people shouldn't die of illness because they are poor, whining. Neither do I consider that defending that the (ultra) rich should not pay less taxes than the poor, whining.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:41 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Large majority, not just majority. That's the thing. He has to reach enough of the republican voters so that republican politicians have to shut up. If the language these people understand is "Jesus", he could have used it for an actualy good purpose without lying. He also has to put a leash on Fox "News". Maybe it's too late for that part. Anyway, I admit that the taxes thing is harder, but it's still a sufficiently blatant injustice to be knocked down.
Monday morning quarter-backing at its uninformed worst. Jesus talk? Seriously, you really do not understand what you are talking about. You do not understand the tenor of this country or the actual issues at hand, and in this country we do not put leashes on news organizations, which again points to how very little you understand about America. Now, you are just embarrassing yourself.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:47 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Large majority, not just majority. That's the thing. He has to reach enough of the republican voters so that republican politicians have to shut up. If the language these people understand is "Jesus", he could have used it for an actualy good purpose without lying. He also has to put a leash on Fox "News". Maybe it's too late for that part. Anyway, I admit that the taxes thing is harder, but it's still a sufficiently blatant injustice to be knocked down.
Monday morning quarter-backing at its uninformed worst. Jesus talk? Seriously, you really do not understand what you are talking about. You do not understand the tenor of this country or the actual issues at hand, and in this country we do not put leashes on news organizations, which again points to how very little you understand about American. Now, you are just embarrassing yourself.


The republican party does the "Jesus talk". And it works. Why shouldn't Obama? Why is this wrong? Instead of saying that I don't undrstand, explain it to me in a way that is convincing. As I said, I will admit I'm wrong as soon as it is explained to me why I'm wrong.

Yes, neither in your country nor in any other democracy. What was meant, as you can easily understand, is too put people who abuse freedom of speech, in that "news" organization, in court.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:56 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Large majority, not just majority. That's the thing. He has to reach enough of the republican voters so that republican politicians have to shut up. If the language these people understand is "Jesus", he could have used it for an actualy good purpose without lying. He also has to put a leash on Fox "News". Maybe it's too late for that part. Anyway, I admit that the taxes thing is harder, but it's still a sufficiently blatant injustice to be knocked down.
Monday morning quarter-backing at its uninformed worst. Jesus talk? Seriously, you really do not understand what you are talking about. You do not understand the tenor of this country or the actual issues at hand, and in this country we do not put leashes on news organizations, which again points to how very little you understand about American. Now, you are just embarrassing yourself.


The republican party does the "Jesus talk". And it works. Why shouldn't Obama? Why is this wrong? Instead of saying that I don't undrstand, explain it to me in a way that is convincing. As I said, I will admit I'm wrong as soon as it is explained to me why I'm wrong.
Jesus talk. Seriously. I don't think you understand "Jesus talk" in this country. The GOP is using "Jesus talk" to its base.

Yes, neither in your country nor in any other democracy. What was meant, as you can easily understand, is too put people who abuse freedom of speech, in that "news" organization, in court.
And you embarrass yourself even more. You obviously do not understand what freedom of speech means in this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_S ... _of_Skokie
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
The republican party does the "Jesus talk". And it works. Why shouldn't Obama? Why is this wrong? Instead of saying that I don't undrstand, explain it to me in a way that is convincing. As I said, I will admit I'm wrong as soon as it is explained to me why I'm wrong.
Jesus talk. Seriously. I don't think you understand "Jesus talk" in this country. The GOP is using "Jesus talk" to its base.

Yes, neither in your country nor in any other democracy. What was meant, as you can easily understand, is too put people who abuse freedom of speech, in that "news" organization, in court.
And you embarrass yourself even more. You obviously do not understand what freedom of speech means in this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_S ... _of_Skokie


And why shouldn't Obama do the same thing to reach their base? I've seen you posting here, about a year ago, a cartoon with poor and sick people with protest signs saying things like "less taxes for the rich!", and so on. They are obviously against their own best interest. It's these people who have to be reached. If their language is "Jesus" then so be it. It does not have to literaly be Obama saying everything. But he could create a strategy for this to be done, especialy in republican states, by the respective governors and congressmen.

Yes, nazis can protest here too. But I assume that there, just as here, you can't call a guy a rapist without being elegible for legal action. If you can insult people in whatever form in your country, then I am embarassing myself. But I don't think that's the case. If you call someone Hitler, the offended person has the right to defend himself in court, right? Is the POTUS an exception to this?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:17 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Large majority.
A large majority. Again, you are totally ignorant, clueless, about what it is that Obama has to face in this country. Whatever a "large majority" might be, if Obama does not "convince" a large majority he is a failure -- according to your rather strange vie of things --, but never mind the significant hurdles that is actually entailed in that. Again, you are clueless.

I'm aware of the existence of the congress. That's why he needs to reach republican voters. People who are poor and are being brainwashed to defend the interests of the people who explore them. That has to be his target.
You may be aware of the Congress, but you do not understand dynamics between the Congress and the POTUS. That people are being exploited and are voting against their own best interest is a seriously problem -- a long term problem, deeply ingrained over decades. This not something that a POTUS is simply going to erase with Jesus talk.

I don't consider defending that people shouldn't die of illness because they are poor, whining. Neither do I consider that defending that the (ultra) rich should not pay less taxes than the poor, whining.
It comes across as whining. And Obama has done far more than any other president to address the issue of health care in this country. And he has fought -- and continues to fight -- for a revision in the tax code, and has had some success in that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:32 am

I realised I said something that was stupid: what I meant was that the POTUS should work in a strategy to be executed by the democrat representatives in each state.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:39 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
And why shouldn't Obama do the same thing to reach their base? I've seen you posting here, about a year ago, a cartoon with poor and sick people with protest signs saying things like "less taxes for the rich!", and so on. They are obviously against their own best interest. It's these people who have to be reached. If their language is "Jesus" then so be it. It does not have to literaly be Obama saying everything. But he could create a strategy for this to be done, especialy in republican states, by the respective governors and congressmen.
Wow. I wish I had such slap-happy conviction that things are so easy. Just use "Jesus talk," as if that is some sort simple singular thing. Actually, as I have said, you are clueless and ignorant, and it is true, given that "Jesus talk" is used by the left -- including Obama -- more so now than in the past, but is it not a silver bullet, a magic pill. What has been ingrained, grounded in fear, over decades is going to take time to undo. But since we do not get quick results, Obama is a bad president -- according to your unreasonable view of things.

Yes, nazis can protest here too. But I assume that there, just as here, you can't call a guy a rapist without being elegible for legal action. If you can insult people in whatever form in your country, then I am embarassing myself. But I don't think that's the case. If you call someone Hitler, the offended person has the right to defend himself in court, right? Is the POTUS an exception to this?
Calling someone a Hitler, or likening them to Stalin, is different from calling them a pedophile. If the person in question is not the latter, court is appropriate, but the former is political speech. The POTUS has been called un-American, a Muslim, a socialist, a communist, a foreign born Kenyan national, a fascist, among other things. There is no going to court over that. There are, of course, issues of libel and slander, but Fox Noise does not get shut down for political speech, nor does Glenn Beck get his ass hauled off to court for being a rancid putz.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:42 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:I realised I said something that was stupid: what I meant was that the POTUS should work in a strategy to be executed by the democrat representatives in each state.
And that is not happening? Again, you do not know what you are talking about. You just do not see instant result, then BAD PRESIDENT.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby lyndon taylor » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:47 am

Are the moderators exempt from the forum rules against bullying and personal attacks????? Right speech????
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:47 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
And why shouldn't Obama do the same thing to reach their base? I've seen you posting here, about a year ago, a cartoon with poor and sick people with protest signs saying things like "less taxes for the rich!", and so on. They are obviously against their own best interest. It's these people who have to be reached. If their language is "Jesus" then so be it. It does not have to literaly be Obama saying everything. But he could create a strategy for this to be done, especialy in republican states, by the respective governors and congressmen.
Wow. I wish I had such slap-happy conviction that things are so easy. Just use "Jesus talk," as if that is some sort simple singular thing. Actually, as I have said, you are clueless and ignorant, and it is true, given that "Jesus talk" is used by the left -- including Obama -- more so now than in the past, but is it not a silver bullet, a magic pill. What has been ingrained, grounded in fear, over decades is going to take time to undo. But since we do not get quick results, Obama is a bad president -- according to your unreasonable view of things.

Yes, nazis can protest here too. But I assume that there, just as here, you can't call a guy a rapist without being elegible for legal action. If you can insult people in whatever form in your country, then I am embarassing myself. But I don't think that's the case. If you call someone Hitler, the offended person has the right to defend himself in court, right? Is the POTUS an exception to this?
Calling someone a Hitler, or likening them to Stalin, is different from calling them a pedophile. If the person in question is not the latter, court is appropriate, but the former is political speech. The POTUS has been called un-American, a Muslim, a socialist, a communist, a foreign born Kenyan national, a fascist, among other things. There is no going to court over that. There are, of course, issues of libel and slander, but Fox Noise does not get shut down for political speech, nor does Glenn Beck get his ass hauled off to court for being a rancid putz.


Ok, fair enough. It's hard. Let's leave it at that. I continue having my opinion, but you finaly made a good enough argumentation. Discussion over.

But as an off topic: if you call a politician Hitler, or nazi, is that legaly permited, or just pragmaticaly permited?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:48 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Are the moderators exempt from the forum rules against bullying and personal attacks????? Right speech????


Only if I would make a complaint, which I won't. This is vigorous talk, not bullying. But thank you for defending me from what you perceived as bullying.
Last edited by Modus.Ponens on Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:49 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Are the moderators exempt from the forum rules against bullying and personal attacks????? Right speech????
No, and if you have a complaint, use the report button, because this sort of public complaint is a violation of the TOS.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:03 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:But as an off topic: if you call a politician Hitler, or nazi, is that legaly permited, or just pragmaticaly permited?
It would depend on the context and phrasing, but mostly ignored, or used against the perpetrator.

Here a Republican Senate candidate uses a racial slur:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r90z0PMnKwI It likely cost him the election.

This is ugly political speech, but it is protected by the 1st Amendment:
https://www.google.com/search?q=obama+h ... =466&dpr=1

If the speech promotes violence against the president, one will get a knock on the door by the Secret Service (lesser politicians, the FBI or State Police).
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:48 pm

To end on a funny note: :mrgreen:

And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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