Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

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Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby cooran » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:38 pm

Hello all,

Very interesting article "Quantum physics proves there IS an afterlife, claims scientist":

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ntist.html

With metta,
Chris
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby daverupa » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:42 pm

Here's another write-up on the idea of biocentrism.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby Viscid » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:00 pm

I had actually read Lanza's book a couple years ago, as I have much sympathy with the idea that biology informs physics (and that physics codependently informs biology.) The headline for this article is deceptive, though-- I don't recall a definitive 'proof' in the book that quantum physics shows biology ultimately informs physics, but that some experiments can be interpreted to suggest as much. If there was an actual proof, then it would be undeniable. Considering the book was published years ago, it appears as though the article is tabloidesque tripe.
Last edited by Viscid on Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby m0rl0ck » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:04 pm

Lanza, instead, said that when we die our life becomes a 'perennial flower that returns to bloom in the multiverse.'






As good an explanation of rebirth as i have seen :)
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby reflection » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:28 pm

Lanza cites the double-slit test, pictured, to backup his claims. When scientists watch a particle pass through two slits, the particle goes through one slit or the other. If a person doesn't watch it, it acts like a wave and can go through both slits simultaneously. This means its behaviour changes based on a person's perception


This is false and it seems a common misinterpretation. It changes based on being detected BY A MACHINE. There is no special place for consciousness or human perception to make the current theories in quantum mechanics work. Perhaps Lanza himself words it differently than this short article, but either way it would only be a guess, certainly no proof by any definition of the word proof.

Edit: I googled a bit and found this on Lanza's own site.

Consider the double-slit experiment: if one “watches” a subatomic particle or a bit of light pass through slits on a barrier, it behaves like a particle and creates solid-looking hits behind the individual slits on the final barrier that measures the impacts. Like a tiny bullet, it logically passes through one or the other hole. But if the scientists do not observe the trajectory of the particle, then it exhibits the behavior of waves that allow it pass through both holes at the same time. Why does our observation change what happens? Answer: Because reality is a process that requires our consciousness.
http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/f ... -wont-die/


This is nothing more than a wrong understanding of quantum physics, perhaps combined with wishful thinking. Again, it is the detector APPARATUS (aka machine) that changes the behavior of particles in a double slit experiment. The apparatus (for example a light source) changes the momentum of the particles (for example the electrons) in such a way that the wave-behavior is not measurable anymore. There is absolutely no reason to assume consciousness has anything to do with it and you can even prove it doesn't by running the experiment without a person looking at the measurement results of the slits. The wave pattern will still be broken nonetheless.

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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby fig tree » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:46 am

reflection wrote:This is nothing more than a wrong understanding of quantum physics, perhaps combined with wishful thinking. Again, it is the detector APPARATUS (aka machine) that changes the behavior of particles in a double slit experiment. The apparatus (for example a light source) changes the momentum of the particles (for example the electrons) in such a way that the wave-behavior is not measurable anymore. There is absolutely no reason to assume consciousness has anything to do with it and you can even prove it doesn't by running the experiment without a person looking at the measurement results of the slits. The wave pattern will still be broken nonetheless.

There are certain ideas that would benefit from being unlinked to quantum physics. Consciousness as an essential ingredient of reality is one of them. Quantum physics is often presented in a way that makes it unclear the extent to which it's a separate issue. The newspaper piece also mentioned this idea of all times coexisting in a timeless way that merely seems to have a passage of time because of our perspective. This is another idea that really should be addressed separately.

I want to point out here that what makes the interference fringes go away is not the way that the environment (in this case the measuring instruments) disturb the particle going through the slits, but the way in which it affects them. The presence or absence of the particle can in principle be detected with however little disturbance to the particle itself, and according to quantum physics the fact that the measurement apparatus has been put into a fully distinct state still stops the interference effect from occurring.

Just to avoid possible confusion here, when I say "fully distinct state" I mean what in quantum theory is called an orthogonal state... (yes, at right angles, in a "state space")! If there is an observation that one can make of a system that tells you with certainty whether it was in a state A or a state B, then A and B are orthogonal. A particle of light that is vertically polarized is completely distinguishable from a particle of light that is horizontally polarized, i.e. the two states are orthogonal, but it is only partially distinguishable from a particle of light that is just like it is but polarized at a 45 degree angle from vertical. Any test that can be passed by one of them has at least a 1/2 chance of being passed by the other one. So basically, if the apparatus has experienced such a change as you could call its actually registering which way the particle went, then this full distinction between the two pathways has occurred.

It's possible to have a scenario which falls partway between the two that we've described so far, in which the particle has an effect on its environment that falls short of making it possible reliably to tell whether it happened or not, and in those cases the interference effect is partially degraded, to an extent depending on how close the resulting states are to be being distinguishable.

There have been some good experiments about this kind of stuff lately, and so far quantum theory has been confirmed every time.

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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:52 am

reflection wrote:This is false and it seems a common misinterpretation. It changes based on being detected BY A MACHINE. ...

Yes, I think the good Professor should stick to the field that he's an expert in. At the quantum scale there are phenomena that seem odd from an every-day understanding of the world. Figuring out how to interpret some of these phenomena is tricky (though the calculation, at least in this case, is straightforward). Invoking conciousness is not necessary to explain such experiments mathematically and seems to me to simply add unnecessary baggage to the explanation.

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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby Ben » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:27 am

mikenz66 wrote:
reflection wrote:This is false and it seems a common misinterpretation. It changes based on being detected BY A MACHINE. ...

Yes, I think the good Professor should stick to the field that he's an expert in. At the quantum scale there are phenomena that seem odd from an every-day understanding of the world. Figuring out how to interpret some of these phenomena is tricky (though the calculation, at least in this case, is straightforward). Invoking conciousness is not necessary to explain such experiments mathematically and seems to me to simply add unnecessary baggage to the explanation.

:anjali:
Mike


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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby reflection » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:43 am

fig tree wrote:
reflection wrote:This is nothing more than a wrong understanding of quantum physics, perhaps combined with wishful thinking. Again, it is the detector APPARATUS (aka machine) that changes the behavior of particles in a double slit experiment. The apparatus (for example a light source) changes the momentum of the particles (for example the electrons) in such a way that the wave-behavior is not measurable anymore. There is absolutely no reason to assume consciousness has anything to do with it and you can even prove it doesn't by running the experiment without a person looking at the measurement results of the slits. The wave pattern will still be broken nonetheless.

There are certain ideas that would benefit from being unlinked to quantum physics. Consciousness as an essential ingredient of reality is one of them. Quantum physics is often presented in a way that makes it unclear the extent to which it's a separate issue. The newspaper piece also mentioned this idea of all times coexisting in a timeless way that merely seems to have a passage of time because of our perspective. This is another idea that really should be addressed separately.

I want to point out here that what makes the interference fringes go away is not the way that the environment (in this case the measuring instruments) disturb the particle going through the slits, but the way in which it affects them. The presence or absence of the particle can in principle be detected with however little disturbance to the particle itself, and according to quantum physics the fact that the measurement apparatus has been put into a fully distinct state still stops the interference effect from occurring.

Just to avoid possible confusion here, when I say "fully distinct state" I mean what in quantum theory is called an orthogonal state... (yes, at right angles, in a "state space")! If there is an observation that one can make of a system that tells you with certainty whether it was in a state A or a state B, then A and B are orthogonal. A particle of light that is vertically polarized is completely distinguishable from a particle of light that is horizontally polarized, i.e. the two states are orthogonal, but it is only partially distinguishable from a particle of light that is just like it is but polarized at a 45 degree angle from vertical. Any test that can be passed by one of them has at least a 1/2 chance of being passed by the other one. So basically, if the apparatus has experienced such a change as you could call its actually registering which way the particle went, then this full distinction between the two pathways has occurred.

It's possible to have a scenario which falls partway between the two that we've described so far, in which the particle has an effect on its environment that falls short of making it possible reliably to tell whether it happened or not, and in those cases the interference effect is partially degraded, to an extent depending on how close the resulting states are to be being distinguishable.

There have been some good experiments about this kind of stuff lately, and so far quantum theory has been confirmed every time.

Fig Tree

Hi,

Nice post, except I don't understand "The presence or absence of the particle can in principle be detected with however little disturbance to the particle itself". This is not true according to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

But this would turn into a discussion about QM. I'm no expert (just know some basics) and this is not my intention in this thread, so Ill leave it at this.

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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:58 am

reflection wrote:This is nothing more than a wrong understanding of quantum physics, perhaps combined with wishful thinking. Again, it is the detector APPARATUS (aka machine) that changes the behavior of particles in a double slit experiment. The apparatus (for example a light source) changes the momentum of the particles (for example the electrons) in such a way that the wave-behavior is not measurable anymore. There is absolutely no reason to assume consciousness has anything to do with it and you can even prove it doesn't by running the experiment without a person looking at the measurement results of the slits. The wave pattern will still be broken nonetheless.


Interesting point, though I'm not sure the distinction between the process of observation and than the presence of an observer is clear cut.
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:59 am

mikenz66 wrote:Invoking conciousness is not necessary to explain such experiments mathematically and seems to me to simply add unnecessary baggage to the explanation.


Though without consciousness there wouldn't be the maths, the experiments, science, theories, us discussing it - any of it.
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby no mike » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:25 am

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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby Buckwheat » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:34 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Invoking conciousness is not necessary to explain such experiments mathematically and seems to me to simply add unnecessary baggage to the explanation.


Though without consciousness there wouldn't be the maths, the experiments, science, theories, us discussing it - any of it.


Maybe not, but I see no evidence indicating the underlying natural patterns that math and science describe are dependent on consciousness.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:44 pm

Buckwheat wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Invoking conciousness is not necessary to explain such experiments mathematically and seems to me to simply add unnecessary baggage to the explanation.


Though without consciousness there wouldn't be the maths, the experiments, science, theories, us discussing it - any of it.


Maybe not, but I see no evidence indicating the underlying natural patterns that math and science describe are dependent on consciousness.


It reminds me of that old riddle "If a tree falls in a forest and nobody hears, does it make a sound?" I mean would these natural patterns have any meaning without an observer?
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby Buckwheat » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:25 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:I mean would these natural patterns have any meaning without an observer?


Meaning is a totally different discussion. The theory of biocentricity goes so far as to say that time/space would not even exist in the absence of consciousness. I see no evidence to support that bold assertion.
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby daverupa » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:59 pm

Related:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1156 ... llegations

Earlier this month, The New Republic republished a highly critical blogpost about author Rupert Sheldrake. Jerry Coyne, a University of Chicago professor and the author of Why Evolution is True referred to Sheldrake as a "pseudoscientist" and lampooned the allegation that Sheldrake was being persecuted by "militant skeptics." Coyne's piece also derided Deepak Chopra, the physician and alternative medicine figure who has been one of Sheldrake's defenders. Chopra responded with this letter to the editor—and Coyne, in turn responds to the letter...


One of the examples cited there by Deepak's opponent, of Deepak's own writing:

The moon exists in consciousness—no consciousness, no moon—just a sluggishly expanding wave function in a superposition of possibilities. All happens within consciousness and nowhere else.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby Ben » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:46 pm

Dave,

Whenever anyone mentions Buddhism and quantum mechanics in the same sentence, I feel an irrepressible urge to roll my eyes into the back of their sockets.
so, I am grateful to you for sharing the chopra/coyne exchange in New Republic.
Kind regards,
Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:15 am

I like quantum physics because it clearly shows that the way things are is not as obvious as the typical worldling thinks.
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:23 am

chownah wrote:I like quantum physics because it clearly shows that the way things are is not as obvious as the typical worldling thinks.
chownah

I agree, but there is a tendency by people who don't actually know much about quantum mechanics to make the illogical leap:
    Quantum physics doesn't match our every-day experience
    ...therefore...
    <some speculative statement about what it implies about consciousness/reality/etc>

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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Postby Buckwheat » Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:42 am

chownah wrote:I like quantum physics because it clearly shows that the way things are is not as obvious as the typical worldling thinks.
chownah

I agree. It is really fascinating to see that the world can function in mind-blowing and odd manners. However, it is very dangerous to apply quantum ideas to real world stuff. For instance, wave-particle duality is only really a factor for very small things like electrons. For the moon, the particle-ness is so completely overwhelming as to invalidate Chopra's claim that the moon is nothing but a probability function until we observe it.
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