Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:38 am

try putting it in another way?
as that is still more of a statement than a question
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:43 am

Manapa wrote:try putting it in another way?
as that is still more of a statement than a question


It is a question, asking: how accurate is that film?
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:16 am

depends on what you are looking at?

if you are looking at it as expounding the truth of evolution and ID then as it doesn't claim to do this or be for this purpose then not at all, but it isn't ment to be.

if you are looking at it as expounding the truth of the agrument between the two needing sorting out [and the treatment of those who give an creadibility or accept ID] then very, although lob-sided, [and in all probability emphasising the negative] it still gets the point accross, unfortunately this sort of documentary needed to be lob-sided, as saying more open debate and shared findings would of gone unheard as there are other more general calls for the same [in other areas, and the closed minded opinions of leading people on the evolution side see some of CLW's comments for an example].

in science suppression of views before proof is there to support it as rubish or truth is entierly wrong, it would be like the Buddha saying don't see for yourself just accept.

edits in square brackets []
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:38 am

sorting out


Creationism and its more refined variation of intelligent design are not science. They are religion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby Mawkish1983 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:42 am

I'm not sure if I understand this thread and I don't know what video is being referred to, at can I just bed two thoughts I had?

1. I am a scientist. We don't sit around a table trying to work out how to suppress any view that doesn't match our own, we sit around a table to discuss experiments that have been done and thier results, experiments in progress and experiments we'd like to do and predicted results. When something unexpected comes up, we discuss it. Sometimes in these internet forums I get the idea people think we are evil white-coated illuminati trying to rule the world. That brings me on to the second point.

2. Why is this discussion happening in a Theravada forum at all? Isn't this wrong speech? Is this beneficial to practice? Are we going to personally gain from this thread, are we going to change the world?

That's all I have to say about that. This whole thread seems like another "here we go again" topic to me.
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:52 am

Mawkish1983 wrote:I'm not sure if I understand this thread and I don't know what video is being referred to, at can I just bed two thoughts I had?


This drivel: Expelled - no intelligence allowed.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:02 am

Mawkish1983 wrote:Sometimes in these internet forums I get the idea people think we are evil white-coated illuminati trying to rule the world. That brings me on to the second point.


Image

The lasers are in the lab
The old man is dressed in white clothes
Everybody says he's mad
No one knows the things that he knows.

Neil Young
http://www.musicsonglyrics.com/N/neilyo ... lyrics.htm


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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby Ben » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:11 am

Excellent, Mike!
I love 'Sedan Delivery'!
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:18 pm

2. Why is this discussion happening in a Theravada forum at all? Isn't this wrong speech? Is this beneficial to practice? Are we going to personally gain from this thread, are we going to change the world?



The thread was created because someone mentioned a film that involved said debate. I havent seen any evidence of wrong speech here




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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:29 pm

if you are looking at it as expounding the truth of the agrument between the two needing sorting out [and the treatment of those who give an creadibility or accept ID] then very, although lob-sided, [and in all probability emphasising the negative] it still gets the point accross, unfortunately this sort of documentary needed to be lob-sided, as saying more open debate and shared findings would of gone unheard as there are other more general calls for the same [in other areas, and the closed minded opinions of leading people on the evolution side see some of CLW's comments for an example].

in science suppression of views before proof is there to support it as rubish or truth is entierly wrong, it would be like the Buddha saying don't see for yourself just accept.




You seem to be missing the whole point. First of all ID doesnt belong in science its a topic for philosophy and religion only. Iders cant bear this so they try to cram it into the science class where it doesnt belong. Also science is actually humble enough to say "we dont know" instead of the arrogance of the IDers claiming they know it was god

Look at it this way, the idea of "god did it" isnt falsifiable


ID is not science, IDers are trying to push for the doctrine of "god did it" in class rooms. Saying God did it isnt science its a personal belief


For all this moaning the creationists do i have never seen them produce any scientific evidence for their claim. Their arguments come down to they think its a god

Thats why they are pushed out because they dont want to teach science they just want to preach their own beliefs

As i said earlier if you allow ID to be taught as science then you retard human knowledge since you shield the truth


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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby Mawkish1983 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:08 pm

clw_uk wrote:I havent seen any evidence of wrong speech here

I must be wrong then. I understood discussing things like the origin of existence (in this fashion) to be unskillful. Maybe I should just avoid this thread myself then. Enjoy yourselves :)
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:20 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:I havent seen any evidence of wrong speech here

I must be wrong then. I understood discussing things like the origin of existence (in this fashion) to be unskillful. Maybe I should just avoid this thread myself then. Enjoy yourselves :)




Not really discussing how the universe came to be, more the fallacy of the ID lobby
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby Mawkish1983 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:43 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Mawkish1983 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:I havent seen any evidence of wrong speech here

I must be wrong then. I understood discussing things like the origin of existence (in this fashion) to be unskillful. Maybe I should just avoid this thread myself then. Enjoy yourselves :)




Not really discussing how the universe came to be, more the fallacy of the ID lobby

Yes, that's much more skillful
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby Individual » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:42 pm

Manapa wrote:it wasn't the ID part but what happens to people who legitimately stray away from what is accepted, but if you actually look at the film you would see what it is actually about.

EDIT
you may wish to see what the film is about before jumping to conclusions

Science works by building consensus, through repeated research. So, if somebody comes along and says, "The moon is made of cheese!" he's rightly ridiculed, loses his career, and does not waste private or public funds trying to prove the moon is made of cheese.

With that said, it's true that academic funds are focused in a biased way, academia as an institution is restricted by political correctness (lots of terrible research on race, gender, sexuality, and religion, and little support for groundbreaking stuff on those issues). In the case of creationism and intelligent design, that's not simply a controversial hypothesis, it's not even a well-formed hypothesis since it's loaded with presumptions and contradicts mountains of existing evidence without explanation, so it's identical to "the moon is made of cheese" or "there is a flying spaghetti monster."

And lastly everyone should remember that just because Ben Stein plays a smart man in movies doesn't mean he's actually a smart man in person. Seeing his show Ben Stein's Money, he's not the genius he's portrayed as. Besides, a person with a degree in economics has absolutely zero authority on biology. Right now, he's also in a commercial for "freescore.com", one of those credit scams that claim to give you a free credit score by merely asking your credit card number but then bill you for enrollment in a creditcheck program which you were unaware of, and then hassle you when you demand they stop billing you. So, the guy is just a total douche... He wrote a neat column a while ago, though, suggesting that taxing the rich is a good idea, so I don't doubt his knowledge of economics... just his knowledge of theology, biology, and whatever else.
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:08 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
sorting out


Creationism and its more refined variation of intelligent design are not science. They are religion.


is that so
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:15 pm

Manapa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
sorting out


Creationism and its more refined variation of intelligent design are not science. They are religion.


is that so


Naw, I just made it up. Henry Morris and Duane Gish were brilliant scientists, but here I let you deal with Individual. He has an excellent handle on this, and being young, he probably does not suffer from a feeling that life is far too short to waste time on such silliness as serious as it may, but silliness it is.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:28 pm

explain how life started by evolution?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:36 pm

Manapa wrote:explain how life started by evolution?


Geez. God started life. I thought everyone knew that, but it always raises the question:

"What are we to make of a creation in which the routine activity
is for organisms to be tearing others apart with teeth of all types-
biting, grinding flesh, plant stalks, bones between molars, pushing the
pulp down the gullet with delight, incorporating its essence into one's
own organization, and then excreting with foul stench and gasses the
residue. Everyone reaching out to incorporate others who are edible to
him. The mosquitoes bloating themselves on blood, the maggots, the
killer-bees attacking with a fury and a demonism, sharks continuing to
tear and swallow while their own innards are being torn out-not to
mention the daily dismemberment and slaughter in "natural" accidents
of all types: an earthquake buries alive seventy thousand bodies in Peru,
automobiles make a pyramid heap of over fifty thousand a year in the
U.S. alone, a tidal wave washes over a quarter of a million in the
Indian Ocean. Creation is a nightmare spectacular taking place on a
planet that has been soaked for hundreds of millions of years in the
blood of all its creatures. The soberest conclusion that we could make
about what has actually been taking place on the planet for about three
billion years is that it is being turned into a vast pit of fertilizer."

--Ernst Becker THE DENIAL OF DEATH

Explain how the supposed god started life and why, and where did this life starting god come from?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:42 pm

hi individual thought I would address this part directly, although am replying in part at least to another post by CLW
Individual wrote:
And lastly everyone should remember that just because Ben Stein plays a smart man in movies doesn't mean he's actually a smart man in person. Seeing his show Ben Stein's Money, he's not the genius he's portrayed as. Besides, a person with a degree in economics has absolutely zero authority on biology. Right now, he's also in a commercial for "freescore.com", one of those credit scams that claim to give you a free credit score by merely asking your credit card number but then bill you for enrollment in a creditcheck program which you were unaware of, and then hassle you when you demand they stop billing you. So, the guy is just a total douche... He wrote a neat column a while ago, though, suggesting that taxing the rich is a good idea, so I don't doubt his knowledge of economics... just his knowledge of theology, biology, and whatever else.


Stephen Hawkins isn't a philosopher, or theologan does that discount his and every other non-philosopher and non-theologian from the debate?
here is the think is the point of the film valid? yes
is the point of the film to open up the debate from poop slinging? yes
is the point of the film to extol the truth of ID or a god? no
the film stated the point of it being made at the begining and on the web site

The freedom to legitimately challenge “Big Science’s” orthodoxy…without persecution.

The debate over evolution is confusing and to some, bewildering: “Wasn’t this all settled years ago?” The answer to that question is equally troubling: “Yes…and no.”
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:07 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Explain how the supposed god started life and why, and where did this life starting god come from?


Hi Tilt,
here is the thing

I am not saying anything close to that! nor have I been, or believe in such a being.

I am as it is willing to be wrong,

what I have been saying from the start is that this film is saying that the debate isn't over the result isn't final, which I agree with.

the claims on ID, are not an argument that is relevant, ID is trying to say something on the topic of how life began, which would naturally have an effect on how evolution is seen, Evolution is saying that ID stunds learning, hinders 'propper' science, yet doesn't address the question or do itself justice. just because a god or something which could be called god may be posited with a theory doesn't mean that the theory is wrong, but it also doesn't mean the theory is right either, untill the origin of life can be proven the debate isn't over.

and I would love to know what a scientist has to say on this, and what I have said here in this thread, so Mawkish (or other scientist if any have a good knowledge on this topic) if you do wish to add something from the scientists angle please do.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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