Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:00 am

The Rice Pledging Scheme is just the tip of one of the many icebergs that is bringing this country to ruin.

Rice Pledging Scheme at a Crossroads.
The caretaker government may have painted itself into a corner, as its inability to pay farmers may be its undoing.


The sad thing is that they will blame the protesters and Dems for that. The rice farmers will believe it, they will vote PT again, they will get very angry, they will dress in red again to come to Bangkok, and things will only get worst.
Last edited by suriyopama on Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chownah
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby chownah » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:37 am

A little bit about the history of rice farming in Thailand....from Wikipedia, Rice Producton in Thailand:
"
The government wanted to promote urban growth and one of the ways it accomplished this was by taxing the rice industry and using the money in big cities.[5] In fact, during 1953, tax on rice accounted for 32 percent of government revenue. The government set a monopoly price on exports, which increased tax revenue and keep domestic prices low for Thailand. The overall effect was a type of income transfer from farmers to the government and to urban consumers (who purchased rice). These policies on rice were called the "rice premium," which was used until 1985 when the government finally gave into political pressure.[5] The shift away from protecting the peasant rice farmers by the government moved the rice industry away from the egalitarian values that were enjoyed by farmers to more of a modern-day, commercial, profit-maximizing industry.[5]
"
Seems like historically it was the rice farmer who supported the elite on Bangkok........maybe now is a good time for them to return the favor..........somehow they don't seem to think of it this way. Before, the small farmer had no rights and the elite took their money........now it seems the elite still don't want to give voting rights to the small farmer and they whine because for a brief few years small farmers will have a bit of extra money......like my neighbor who at the age of over sixty bought a water heater for warm showers for the first time in his life so now when it is 20 C in his house he can warm the water before showering.......how dare he squander the diamond encrusted elite's resources on such outlandish luxury......never mind that he had to pay the rice premium to reduce the cost of rice for the wealthy bangkokians and to support the wealthy rice businessmen in Bangkok when he was a younger man.

Those small farmers are so greedy.
chownah

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:12 pm

If on 1953 Thailand had the monopoly on rice export, as you indicate, that seemed to be a good policy for that time (good for the seller, not for the final buyer or for global hunger). But today Thailand cannot compete with other countries at those inflated prices, and they are just stock-piling millions of tones of rice that they have bought to the farmers at a price 40% higher than the market. That is unsustainable in a long term.

They should give that rice to countries in need, like Philippines, before it is rotten.


"Just as the media and the public are losing interest in the government's populist rice pledging scheme, the latest report from the Rome-based Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) warns that Thailand may be running out of space to store rice.

It is a timely, if not a rough, wake-up call that the scheme is still kicking but that the worst about it is yet to emerge, like opening Pandora's box which is about to burst and spill out all the worms.

The FAO predicted that the rice stockpile will surge to a record high this year due to the rice pledging scheme to the point that there may be no room in warehouses to store the staple. According to the report, milled rice holdings may jump 40% to 18.2 million tonnes in 2013 as the government is expected to buy as much as 11 million tonnes of unmilled rice this harvest compared to nine million tonnes from the last harvest.

The UN agency said there may be a "looming shortage of storage space" as the government's stock release plans have progressed slowly, further aggravating the supply situation for an export sector that is "faced with little offshore demand".

Rice exports plunged 37% to 6.73 million tonnes last year _ the lowest level since 2000 _ rendering Thailand's fall from the world's top rice exporter to third place after Vietnam and India.
..."
Continued on: FAO-warning-shows-folly-of-rice-pledging


"The International Monetary Fund has called on Thailand to drop its multi-billion baht subsidies for rice growers, saying the programme is undermining confidence in the country's finances.

The IMF said Tuesday in its annual review of Thailand's economy that losses in the programme will continue if the policy remains unchanged.
The rice buying programme, a flagship policy of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra's government to win support in Thailand's vote rich farming regions, has accumulated losses of at least US$4.46 billion since it was introduced in 2011.

The government buys rice from farmers at above-market prices but has had difficulty in reselling the grain on international markets. The scheme was renewed by the cabinet for the third year in October but the government decided to cap the total value for each qualifying household.

"With the pledging prices about 40% above market prices, it is inevitable for the government to incur losses as long as the scheme remains unchanged," the IMF said in its report. "The government has committed 410 billion baht to the revolving fund for managing the scheme, but it is unclear how losses will be contained within the size of the fund."

Rice is the country's staple grain and one of its main exports. But India and Vietnam surpassed Thailand as the world's top rice exporters in 2012 as the government stockpiled rice to avoid even bigger losses.

The IMF also said lack of data about the rice purchasing program has diminished confidence in Thailand's public finances.

Thai officials said in the report that a reduction in the pledging prices or a purchase limit might be necessary to sustain the policy but insisted the scheme was aimed at reducing economic inequality in the Southeast Asian nation.

The IMF suggested the government replace rice price pledging and other generalised subsidies with programs that are targeted at vulnerable groups, including low-income farming households.

Governments have intervened in the rice market through a variety of means since the early 1960s to help farmers, but the current scheme has its roots in the populist policies of Ms Yingluck's brother, former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who won landslide victories in two elections before he was ousted in a 2006 coup.

The scheme has been dogged by corruption and accusations the government has hidden its true cost."

IMF-urges-thailand-to-stop-rice-scheme

chownah
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby chownah » Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:05 pm

Yes, the rice scheme is a very bad thing.....it indulges those small rice farmers in their greedy ways and it is running over budget......this combination is a really good reason to use forcefull intervention to block the legally called election.

Doing a bad job of managing the rice surplus in Thailand is surely a good reason to throw out the gov't, dissolve democratic processes and set up yet again government by the unelected elite....definitely.

Did you know that under the a misfit regime there was a rice subsidy......they gave cash to farmers for planting rice. Any farmer just took a copy of the land ownership for the land they were farming into a designated bank and registered how many rai were planted and which kind of rice it was......on a certain date they just gave you some money....cash. Seems like a populist program to me....and the cash they gave out was of course a complete loss to the government....and in addition it went to a farmer whether he or she successfully grew any rice or not. It was strictly based on how many rai you declared that you planted......as far as I know, no one ever checked to see if anyone actually planted anything.

chownah

P.s. Today the news reports that Suthep's minions forcefully interfered with political parties that we're going to register for the election......this is after Suthep himself declared that he would do everything in his power to disrupt the election. In most western democracies this would be a quick trip to jail and certain death for any political aspirations. Have these people broken Thai election laws in doing this and if so shouldn't they be arrested?
chownah

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby chownah » Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:21 am

I guess I should be happy about the demonstrations since the foreign exchange rate has lowered the value of Thai baht meaning that my own savings which are not in Thai baht have become more valuable.

Of course, Thai people generally do not have money in foreign currency....except of course for the rich elite. The weakening of the baht has made all of their foreign currencies and investments more valuable relative to the Thai economy. But even many of the elite have no foreign currency or investments....so how might this effect them? Well, a weaker baht will make Thai goods less expensive as exports so the export business should benefit. Easy to see how this will benefit rich business people but difficult to see how this would benefit the small farmer......but never mind, we have already established that the small farmer is too greedy and demanding of luxuries (like warm showers in cold weather) so they might actually benefit by a bit of austerity......cold showers are better anyway aren't they?

Lower your thermostat to 10 C and then bathe in water that is 25 C or less......that is what life was like for small farmers in the north who wanted to bathe in the morning....of course they would wait until the temperature rose to a balmy 25 C before bathing.......but still......just try it yourself.
chownah

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:32 am

This is what my poor looted country would need: a massive social uprising against corruption
phpBB [video]

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Mr Man
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Mr Man » Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:57 pm

A very odd and scary video. "We don't believe in violence" rings a little hollow today.

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Mr Man » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:16 pm


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Mr Man
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Mr Man » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:22 pm

Police officer killed in clashes with anti-govt protesters

http://www.mcot.net/site/content?id=52bc16c3150ba0dd0c000015#.UrxJcrRuRpV

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Mr Man » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:58 pm


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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:21 pm

Mr Man wrote:The antidemocratic roots of the Thai protesters


Another article trying to expose this as a "rural" vs "elite" conflict. Absolutely ridiculous!
Are you actually in Bangkok, or just reading the media?

Mr Man wrote:Police officer killed in clashes with anti-govt protesters


Killed by "men in black" from the roof (they are police red-shirts dressing with black suite). The Shinawatra clan and his government clone is a very evil power.

Drone View of Men on the Roof

Just how badly compromised is the mainstream media?

chownah
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby chownah » Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:08 pm

suriyopama,
You must be getting a bit desperate for links as the two you just posted are surprisingly short on facts and long on innuendo....and the innuendo is pretty far fetched in some cases.......I suggest that people read both of these and look for the substance.....let us know if you find any.
chownah

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Mr Man
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Mr Man » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:16 pm

suriyopama wrote:

Are you actually in Bangkok, or just reading the media?



suriyopama, I am not in Bangkok but have many relatives and friends in Thailand but really that is irrelevant.

You brand an article by Thongchai Winichakul http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thongchai_Winichakul as "Absolutely ridiculous!" but then post a link to an article by Tony Cartalucci. Who is Tony Cartalucci? Does the "Land Destroyer" blog strike you as a neutral source of information?

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Mr Man
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Mr Man » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:30 pm

suriyopama wrote:
Killed by "men in black" from the roof (they are police red-shirts dressing with black suite).



How do you know this?

Oh but what we do know is that Army chief Prayuth Chan-ocha has not ruled out a coup http://bangkokpost.com/news/local/387008/coup-possible-if-situation-demands-it-prayuth-says. Is that an acceptable intervention? Or an acceptable comment from the head of the army?

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby gavesako » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:09 pm

This article looks into the causes of the recurring political violence in Thailand:

First, is the sense of absolute self-righteousness. Thais are often taught through a conservative education system that there can only be one correct answer. Thus, if you think you are right, your opponents must therefore be wrong and misguided. Within this context, a political conflict can become a struggle between good and evil - not just a struggle between fellow human beings with different political opinions and ideologies. ...
Tolerance of people with different political views is not possible if one believes there can only be one path that is right. Such an attitude is compounded by the ethos that the ends justify whatever means one takes - the second problematic factor. ...
Many Thais may appear to be kind and ready to avoid conflict on a superficial level, but this tendency is "unnatural" and not suited to democratic principles, because conflict is a natural part of the democratic system, which then searches for peaceful solutions.
Despite deeply rooted traditions that teach Thais to avoid conflict in daily life, many are unable to resolve political conflict peacefully through deliberation and compromise. Instead, they end up resorting to violence in an attempted to annihilate "the other side". Such zero-tolerance is reprehensible in a modern, heterogeneous society.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politic ... 23192.html
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby gavesako » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:42 pm


Are Buddhist monks allowed to be involved in politics?


Buddhist monks renounce all political activity when they leave the world. If monks were to be involved in politics, this would have detrimental
effects on their peace of mind, be an unnecessary and worldly cause of conflict within monastic communities, and jeopardize the unique role of
the Sangha in society.
The Buddha wanted the monastic order to stand aloof from political issues in order to maintain its role as a refuge to Buddhists of all political persuasions. A non-partisan Sangha may provide a binding and conciliatory presence in society, and this is a role it has performed well in Thailand for hundreds of years. If the Sangha as a whole were to become identified with a particular political party or program, those lay Buddhists in opposition to that party would feel alienated from the monastic order, and potentially the Buddhist religion itself. If a politically active Sangha backed the losing side in a political struggle it might be persecuted, leading to serious consequences for the long-term survival of the monastic body.
Buddhist monastics are expected to provide moral and spiritual guidance to society. If political programs conflict with Buddhist principles it is
legitimate for monastics to speak of the importance of upholding those principles without referring to political parties or individuals by name.

- Ajahn Jayasaro: "Without and Within"
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby binocular » Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:13 pm

gavesako wrote:This article looks into the causes of the recurring political violence in Thailand:

First, is the sense of absolute self-righteousness. Thais are often taught through a conservative education system that there can only be one correct answer. Thus, if you think you are right, your opponents must therefore be wrong and misguided. Within this context, a political conflict can become a struggle between good and evil - not just a struggle between fellow human beings with different political opinions and ideologies. ...http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politic ... 23192.html

But where in the world is this not the case??

Some are just better at pretending to be more tolerant and democratic than others.


Thais are often taught through a conservative education system that there can only be one correct answer.

Logically, there can only be one correct answer. That's the whole point of the concept of "correct."
It's only in fancy sci-fi scenarios with parallel realities that there can in a way exist multiple correct answers.

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:37 am

I recommend that you take a long walk through all the protester camps where they have already been living for nearly two months. From Makhawan Bridge in front of the UN through Rajadamnern Nok Avenue up to the Democracy Monument. Close your newspapers, lay down your assumptions, and take real contact with reality. Observe them with your own eyes and talk with them. There is no danger, I can tell you that they are very friendly.

This is a genuine revolution of the people against corruption and abuse of power
. It is not about “rural” vs “elites”, or “red shirts” vs “yellow shirts”, or a fight of classes, religions, politics, or ethnic conflicts.

Why some mainstream media is afraid of telling that truth? Very simple: that media is owned by the same big corporations that control the governments, and they simply don’t want this to happen in their backyard.

I cannot explain why some of you are compulsively defending a corrupted government in a foreign country that is not even your home. Unless, of course, you are getting benefit from those business.

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby binocular » Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:25 am

suriyopama wrote:I cannot explain why some of you are compulsively defending a corrupted government in a foreign country that is not even your home. Unless, of course, you are getting benefit from those business.

Except that nobody here is "compulsively defending a corrupted government in a foreign country."

I'd just like to see that the criticts of the Thai (or any other "corrupted") government are not simply trying to elevate themselves by putting others down.
Maybe those governments aren't corrupted. Maybe it is simply inevitable for any government to be any other way but - to be perceived as - corrupted.
Except for fairytales, I don't know of any actually existing country where all the people would be happy with the working of their government.

More importantly, I would like to see that the democracy that those critics are aspiring to is in fact possible, realistically attainable in this world and isn't just a pipe dream.

Not being optimistic about revolution isn't the same as defending forces reactionary to the revolution.

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Mkoll » Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:48 pm

binocular wrote:Maybe those governments aren't corrupted. Maybe it is simply inevitable for any government to be any other way but - to be perceived as - corrupted.


Dear binocular,

According to my father, who is a libertarian, it's inevitable for governments to be corrupt. And on a certain level I agree with this.

We read in Dīgha Nikāya 26 a of wheel-turning monarch who rules with the Dhamma and everything is perfect and ideal for 7 generations. This is when humans have lifespans of hundreds of thousands of years. But the moment that 8th monarch neglects his duties, everything goes to the dogs and vice just keeps increasing until we're where we are today.

I think the point here is that once the leader(s) become corrupt, everything goes downhill for those following the leader, ie the people. An ideal democracy is a pipe dream in today's world; according to DN 26, it gets a lot worse until it gets better. Call this view pessimist if you'd like but the evidence of corruption is plain to see.

Of course there are degrees of corruption and it's better to live in the United States rather than Somalia. No offense to Somalians.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa


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