Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

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binocular
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby binocular » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:36 pm

gavesako wrote:
"The world is not made of facts, it's made of narratives and stories." (Thanissaro Bhikkhu)

Where is this from?

The closest I could find was
"Someone once said that the universe isn’t made out of atoms, it’s made out of stories."
http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... 20Body.pdf

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gavesako
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby gavesako » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:47 pm

It's from one of his recorded talks, I forget which one. He deals with the way our perception selectively picks up certain aspects and weaves a whole storyline based on them.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby binocular » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:04 pm

I know he mentions these things, I just wanted an exact attribution/reference.

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:28 am

Here are some stories, as it has been requested. Only tips of the iceberg.

About TS
Thaksin's 'war on drugs' a crime against humanity
Thaksin moans, but it is he who must change
If I were Thaksin
Thaksin-could-face-10-more-criminal-charges
Twin-evils-are-battling-to-bring-down-Thailand

About the killings on the 2010 protest
If I'm guilty, execute me': Abhisit on the red shirt crackdown
abhisit-vows-to-fight-2010-protest-charges-in-court
Abhisit and Suthep reject Amnesty Bill despite facing multiple charges
That decision of Abhisit and Suthep to reject the controverted Amnesty Bill that would have washed their criminal cases avoiding to face the court says that, no matter if they are guilty or innocent, they are claiming for accountability and for the truth to be known. (ps: as I have said before, I have no affinity for politicians. I just wish that the court will sentence them according to the truth and justice. That is something that Thaksin has been trying to evade since he run from the country)

There are thousands of articles with other different points of views, as biased as the ones that I have exposed ;) . If you dig enough, you may find signs of wrong doing and corruption everywhere, in all sides. Just google if you want to have a wider idea of the situation, but be careful: there is more than enough to get an indigestion. It is an endlessly deep issue

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby chownah » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:26 am

Yes, one can get lost in the labyrinth of issues. Maybe it is best to consider one at a time. I like to think about democracy. Should the people of Thailand be allowed to vote to determine their government? Clearly the military has historically said "no". The white paper presented before does a good job of documenting this I think.....in fact any historical recalling of the elections held and the military coups of the last 80 years will support this as well. The lack of democracy and the extent of military dictatorship in Thailand is we'll know both inside and outside Thailand......but it is almost never mentioned INSIDE Thailand.

Politics in Thailand is about gaining power and the purpose is to control the money. Corruption is rampant and so accepted at so many levels,that being in a government gives certain access to wealth which can easily be channeled to friends and family........the rich people in Thailand got rich by being connected to the gov't in one way or another......it has always been that way and is engrained in Thai society at a very fundamental level. If democracy is what is keeping one from access to this wealth then a Thai politician will generally just dispense with democracy. It is interesting to watch how politicians rhetoric changes depending on whether they are on the in or on the out.

I am not surprised that there has been no disputing of facts in the white paper.....this is probably because the paper correctly gets the facts that it presents .......just always be aware that there are many facts which they do not present.
chownah

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:33 am

chownah wrote:Should the people of Thailand be allowed to vote to determine their government? Clearly the military has historically said "no".


That is a crucial question, indeed. Fortunately, the army seems to be contained this time. Someone said that it is because the prime minister (who appointed herself as ministry of defense) bought many war-toys for them, but that is another of the many endless parallel stories.

Many people believe that there must be a reform before the elections are hold, but that is not so easy to cook.
Here is a last minute analysis about that partiular issue: With-no-clear-reform-plan-suspending-poll-would-be-futile

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:28 am

suriyopama wrote:...but that is another of the many endless parallel stories.


Let me recalibrate what I’ve said:

They may not be endless stories. If we go to their roots, they all have the same origin on the triad of greed-aversion-delusion and its corrupted sub-products. They are going to be endless as long as we keep grasping on them, but they could end if we just cut the ignorance that keep us degenerating.

Ha ha ha! If it were so simple to do it as to say it, then we were all be happy enlightened beings right now. As when Ananda told the Buddha that he found the doctrine of Dependent Origination evident and easy to comprehend. The Buddha replied: “Ananda, do not say so. The doctrine of dependent origination is so profound that sentient beings are unable to comprehend it. They are unable to understand what I teach; likewise, they are unable to perceive the process of dependent arising. Consequently, they are perplexed just like with a ball of entangled thread, a jumble of dry grass. They cannot free themselves from sufferings, state of deprivation, degeneration, and transmigration.”

It is puzzling how we think that we can see and understand that “evident and easy to comprehend” principle, but yet we cannot (or not really want to) realize it.
:namaste:

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Mr Man
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Mr Man » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:58 am

suriyopama wrote:Here are some stories, as it has been requested.


Hi suriyopama, where was the request for stories?

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:08 am

Chownah requested some input. I am sorry if that is not what you want to see.

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Mr Man
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Mr Man » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:35 am

chownah wrote:I have not seen anything which I have reason to suspect is inaccurate or incorrect but I have not studied the particulars of these matters and would appreciate having your input as to just what it is in the article to which you take exception or which you find inaccurate or incorrect. I'm not asking for a thorough examination but just a few of the items you take exception to would be interesting. No need to talk about any illegal things that Thaksin did since really the article's discussions are not dependent on that and for the purposes of a discussion on this we could just assume that he is totally guilty of everything he is accused of.....but I think this does not really enter into what the paper discusses.
chownah


As I understood it he was referring to the R. Amsterdam article. Maybe I am wrong.

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:55 am

Mr Man, First you have accused me of spreading fascist propaganda for telling a true story, and now you are inquisitorially controlling what I am posting. Who is the fascist here?

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gavesako
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby gavesako » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:41 am

This is a good Sutta to contemplate in this situation:


AN 10.80 PTS: A v 150
Aghata Sutta: Hatred
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu


"There are these ten ways of subduing hatred. Which ten?

[1] "Thinking, 'He has done me harm. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[2] "Thinking, 'He is doing me harm. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[3] "Thinking, 'He is going to do me harm. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[4] "Thinking, 'He has done harm to people who are dear & pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[5] "Thinking, 'He is doing harm to people who are dear & pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[6] "Thinking, 'He is going to do harm to people who are dear & pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[7] "Thinking, 'He has aided people who are not dear or pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[8] "Thinking, 'He is aiding people who are not dear or pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[9] "Thinking, 'He is going to aid people who are not dear or pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[10] "One does not get worked up over impossibilities.

"These are ten ways of subduing hatred."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby chownah » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:42 am

suriyopama wrote:Chownah requested some input. I am sorry if that is not what you want to see.

Your replies are not supplying the input I requested which is fine as there is no reason for you to do so. I am not surprised that you have not brought up anything from the R. Amsterdam white paper to which you take exception or which you think is inaccurate or incorrect because the portions of what I have read seem to be consistent with what I have read elsewhere. You present yourself as a critic of that white paper so I am hoping you will present some factual misrepresentations which you find in it. It is easy to just dismiss the white paper as being biased even without examining it......an out of hand dismissal like this tends to hide whatever facts have been presented.

I would like you to provide places in the white paper where facts are inaccurate or incorrect......if you can find any. Otherwise I will just continue to think that the facts presented there are accurate and correct as judged from other sources and my own memory of how things transpired.......until which time some other person shows me some mistaken facts in that article.
chownah

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:32 am

suriyopama wrote:Mr Man, First you have accused me of spreading fascist propaganda for telling a true story, and now you are inquisitorially controlling what I am posting. Who is the fascist here?

Perhaps the problem is that there are two issues here:

1. The issue of side is "right" in a political sense. I.e. which side would provide a better government for Thailand. From the various postings I've seen on this thread, it is extremely unlikely that a consensus can be reached on that issue. Which is ok, since political views are just views...
[I would bet that the views that some members have are strongly influenced by their particular friends, family, and experiences in Thailand. Reading, your, my, Robert's and Bhante's posts should make that clear.]

2. The issue of violence and corruption. I'm no expert on Thai history and politics, but it seems fairly obvious to me that violence and corruption has been perpetrated by supporters of both sides. I think we may be able to agree on that, and that we should not support violence or corruption on any side.

The problem is that the political issues seem to be getting mixed up with the issue of condemning violence and corruption. This inevitably leads to irreconcilable disagreement...

:anjali:
Mike

binocular
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby binocular » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:44 am

mikenz66 wrote:Perhaps the problem is that there are two issues here:

Aren't the real problems here people's doubts about the Dhamma?

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby gavesako » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:37 pm

The problem in Thailand seems to be the lacking sense of independent justice which works regardless of who is in control of the government. It has been the case that nobody has ever been brought to court over large-scale killings of political opponents. "Forgive and forget" approach in order to maintain a semblance of social harmony (sometimes even justified by referring to Buddhist teachings of compassion and forgiveness, or by leaving it "up to karma" to deal with) has led to wide-spread scepticism among the Thai people that a just government is possible (although some are still hoping to overturn the whole system and start afresh).

Mrs Angkhana said the DSI should take cases of human rights violations more seriously, instead of largely focusing on political cases, particularly the 91 deaths during the 2010 red-shirt street protests, which took place under the Abhisit Vejjajiva-led administration.
Mrs Angkhana said the agency had made no progress in cases that occurred during the Thaksin Shinawatra-led government, including her husband’s disappearance and the 2,500 people who perished in extra-judicial killings during Thaksin’s "war on drugs". ...
"Successive Thai governments have engaged in cover-ups to hide the identities of those responsible for Somchai’s abduction and feared murder,” he said.
“Somchai’s ‘disappearance’ reflects glaring problems of state-sponsored abuses and the culture of impunity in Thailand. Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra needs to demonstrate political courage by pressing the Justice Ministry to at last bring the perpetrators to justice.”
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews ... -slams-dsi


Through the eight years of the Thai political divide, people have expressed self-righteous and narrow-minded attitudes, ignorance and intolerance with impunity. ...
Evil doesn’t exist apart from us. It exists within us and is expressed in what we say and do, even in the name of the good cause. Thailand is not there yet. But we are heading down that road unless such hateful emotion is put in check. Before pouring your hate on others, first take a long look at yourself in the mirror.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opin ... i-vanijaka
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby binocular » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:51 pm

gavesako wrote:The problem in Thailand seems to be the lacking sense of independent justice which works regardless of who is in control of the government.

I am not familiar with, nor can I imagine how there can be a sense of independent justice that would work regardless of who is in control of the government.

wide-spread scepticism among the Thai people that a just government is possible

Is there a country in the world, or has there ever existed a country in the world, where its people actually believed that a just government is possible?
While the idea that a government should be just is ubiquitous, I don't know of a single example where this is actually the case.

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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby dagon » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:04 pm

What this thread has shown is that there is anger by a lot of people and that the anger builds upon itself. There is an ongoing process of justifying action based upon actions that have occurred before. Trying to apportion blame at this time may not be the most useful strategy because that will just lead delays in any resolution - there is a legal maximum that states "justice delayed is justice denied".

The amnesty bill may have been intended as a way to move forward but it fails to meet the need of the victims of the actions by both sides. Neither side of the political divide should take any comfort from the recent mass demonstrations. The demonstration were against the government, but the fact is that many who demonstrated were not there in support of the opposition - as much as they may like to portray it that way. The resolution had to be decided on by the Thai people - it is their country and their rights.

As a farang with a Thai family - the only model that i have seen that may address the needs (maybe not wants) of all the parties is the Nelson Mandela model of a truth and reconciliation process.

May all find peace and safety.

dagon

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Mr Man
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Mr Man » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:19 pm

dagon wrote:
As a farang with a Thai family - the only model that i have seen that may address the needs (maybe not wants) of all the parties is the Nelson Mandela model of a truth and reconciliation process.




Nelson Mandela ""The Africans require the franchise on the basis of one man, one vote"

phpBB [video]

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Mr Man
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Mr Man » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:41 pm

From todays New York Times "The Last Gasp of Thai Paternalism" http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/20/opinion/the-last-gasp-of-thai-paternalism.html?_r=0


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