And therefore, God does not exist!

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:39 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:The idea that there is no God in Buddhism, hence I am 100% responsible for everything I do, seems a bit like a recipe for disaster, the Dhamma; truth, has to come from somewhere, it wasn't just made up by the Buddha, he himself says it existed eons before him.
Has to come from somewhere? Why? The Buddha denied that his awakening had anything to do with another. His teachings do no require having anything to do with some sort of god-like something or other. So, what are you talking about?


The regularity of the Dhamma and that there is such a thing as objective morality, an objective order of things.

Bhikkhu Bodhi talks here about "intrinsic laws of the cosmos built into the heart of reality":

/.../
If morality is to function as an efficient guide to conduct, it cannot be propounded as a self-justifying scheme but must be embedded in a more comprehensive spiritual system which grounds morality in a transpersonal order. Religion must affirm, in the clearest terms, that morality and ethical values are not mere decorative frills of personal opinion, not subjective superstructure, but intrinsic laws of the cosmos built into the heart of reality.
/.../

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ponse.html
So, where did all that come from? Are we to assume from some deliberate act of some being?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby binocular » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:40 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:And I don't represent buddhism.

Of course you do. The moment a person calls themselves "Buddhist" in public, the moment a person makes claims to the effect of "This is Buddhism, that is not Buddhism", this person is functioning as a representative of Buddhism.
This person might not be a good or an adequate representative of Buddhism, but he or she is funcitoning as a representative.
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:42 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Why?

Who or what are Christians that their critiques should be responded to?
You can't think of any?

No.

People are saying all kinds of things. Unless there is grounds for legal action, why take up their challenges?[/quote]So there is no reason, ever (short of actionable libel), to respond to a critique?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby binocular » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:45 am

lyndon taylor wrote:I'm afraid that link doesn't jell with Buddhist scripture I've read, specifically with regard Brahma etc, Cooran. The anti God Buddhism has more to do with western secular Buddhism and its links to atheism, than it does with many of the eastern Buddhist traditions. Buddha commented on what God was not, what he didn't say is that there is no such thing as Brahma, devas, deities etc.

And for saying things like this, one's head could roll ...

This is probably where I differ the most from so many Buddhists: I am not anti-theist.
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:49 am

tiltbillings wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:
Seems to me you've got a very narrow definition of what God is, based on something taught from a Judeo Christian background, the Buddha definetly was not an atheist, he believed in Brahma and I would think other deities, however he didn't believe in the idea of them being perfect, all knowing, all powerful, or creators.
The Buddha very clearly rejected the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos.

I know it may be hard for you imagine God or gods that do not have all those qualities, but the Buddha seem to teach that they exist, how much attention you give them is up to you, in either case Buddhism is not an atheistic religion, its just not a Judeo Christian type Theist religion, nor a Supreme Creator Being Brahma Theist religion.
I am not arguing about the existence of devas. Devas are kamma bounds beings subject to birth, death and rebirth within samsara, and they are of limited power, and they are not an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos.

Just for instance a God that is not perfect, all knowing, all powerful, or creator can still be good, knowledgeable, powerful, and creative, without being omniscient.
But are you postulating that such a being is the creator of the universe?(quote Tiltbillings)




Read over this and tell me Tilt, who are you responding to, yourself or me?? You quote what I said then instead of comment on my quote, bring up arguements you were having with some one else, I didn't say god was all powerful, all knowing, the creator etc

Basically you've invented a God that couldn't possibly exist, being perfect in every way, all knowing, all powerful, creator of everything INCLUDING the Universe, and then you proceed to tear it down, which well you might, but I have nothing to do with it, I'm not debating about this God you're referencing. What do you think the Buddha thought of Brahma, did he think Brahma had no power at all, that you could spit in his face and nothing would come of it, did he deny that Brahma could have any influence over events in the world, did he ever clearly state that Brahma does not exist at all???
Last edited by lyndon taylor on Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:49 am

bi wrote:
tilt wrote:
binocular wrote:Who or what are Christians that their critiques should be responded to?
You can't think of any?

No.

People are saying all kinds of things. Unless there is grounds for legal action, why take up their challenges?
So, why are you taking up this challenge by responding what is being said here?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Sam Vara » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:53 am

binocular wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:Not justified to anybody, or for any specific purpose, but justified by virtue of being true.

This assumes that truth, and knowledge (!) of truth, are things that exist independently of people, independently of minds who know, somewhere out there, like stars ...




No. It just assumes that there is a reality existing independently of people (like stars, indeed) and that the truth of propositions consists in their correspondence to that independent reality. A star cannot be true, but propositions or views about a star can be.
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:54 am

tiltbillings wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:The idea that there is no God in Buddhism, hence I am 100% responsible for everything I do, seems a bit like a recipe for disaster, the Dhamma; truth, has to come from somewhere, it wasn't just made up by the Buddha, he himself says it existed eons before him.
Has to come from somewhere? Why? The Buddha denied that his awakening had anything to do with another. His teachings do no require having anything to do with some sort of god-like something or other. So, what are you talking about?


The Dhamma, I thought you would know the Buddha never claimed to have invented the Dhamma.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:54 am

lyndon taylor wrote:


Read over this and tell me Tilt, who are you responding to, yourself or me?? You quote what I said then instead of comment on my quote, bring up arguements you were having with some one else, I didn't say god was all powerful, all knowing, the creator etc
If you took care with reading what I wrote, you'll see that I am trying get some clarification of what it is you are trying to say. So far you it has been rather vague.

Basically you've invented a God that couldn't possibly exist, being perfect in every way, all knowing, all powerful, creator of everything INCLUDING the Universe,
That is hardly a god of my inventing.

and then you proceed to tear it down, which well you might, but I have nothing to do with it, I'm not debating about this God you're referencing. What do you think the Buddha thought of Brahma, did he think Brahma had no power at all, that you could spit in his face and nothing would come of it, did he deny that Brahma could have any influence over events in the world, did he ever clearly state that Brahma does not exist at all???
If you seriously want me to answer your questions, then take the time to actuall directly address my questions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:55 am

lyndon taylor wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:The idea that there is no God in Buddhism, hence I am 100% responsible for everything I do, seems a bit like a recipe for disaster, the Dhamma; truth, has to come from somewhere, it wasn't just made up by the Buddha, he himself says it existed eons before him.
Has to come from somewhere? Why? The Buddha denied that his awakening had anything to do with another. His teachings do no require having anything to do with some sort of god-like something or other. So, what are you talking about?


The Dhamma, I thought you would know the Buddha never claimed to have invented the Dhamma.
So, who did?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:07 am

Are you familiar with the dhammakaya, that was supposed to be the source of some of the Buddha's wisdom. If you want to understand my understanding of god, I suggest you read about the Tao, and link that to the dhammakaya and maybe emptiness, to me God is the embodiment of Truth(Dhamma) and Wisdom, maybe its linked into kamma as well and its definetly a she presence, not a he.............
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby binocular » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:10 am

tiltbillings wrote:So, where did all that come from? Are we to assume from some deliberate act of some being?


From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on.

From what I understood, Bhikkhu Boddhi's point is that we must hold certain metaphysical stances which we cannot prove or evidence, but must hold them for life to make sense to us and for moral action to seem worthwhile. (He argues similarly here, noting that our sense of justice is not just our projection upon an indifferent universe).

This approach is very common anyway. For example, we generally believe that free will exists, our legal system is built on the conviction that free will exists - even though some scientists claim it doesn't. Or, another example, the equality of the sexes. There is no evidence that men and women are equal, in fact, there is much evidence to the contrary, yet one of the guiding principles in modern societieis is the conviction that they are equal and deserve equal pay for equal work, equal legal protection, etc.


tiltbillings wrote:So there is no reason, ever (short of actionable libel), to respond to a critique?

What do you think?
What do you want from life?
What do you think life is for?

IOW, it's a matter of how much value one places on the words of others, and what power one believes one's words will have on other people.
So these things will differ from person to person, from situation to situation.
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby binocular » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:11 am

tiltbillings wrote:So, why are you taking up this challenge by responding what is being said here?

Because I want to figure out what my place in Buddhism is to be, if any at all.
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby binocular » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:13 am

Sam Vara wrote:No. It just assumes that there is a reality existing independently of people (like stars, indeed) and that the truth of propositions consists in their correspondence to that independent reality.

The above are assumptions that are impossible to evidence.
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:15 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, why are you taking up this challenge by responding what is being said here?

Because I want to figure out what my place in Buddhism is to be, if any at all.
Good luck with that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:16 am

binocular wrote: . . .
Okay.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:18 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Are you familiar with the dhammakaya,
Mahayana doctrine, and unless you can give a reasonable explanation of it, I am not discussing it with you.

that was supposed to be the source of some of the Buddha's wisdom. If you want to understand my understanding of god, I suggest you read about the Tao, and link that to the dhammakaya and maybe emptiness, to me God is the embodiment of Truth(Dhamma) and Wisdom, maybe its linked into kamma as well and its definetly a she presence, not a he.............
Emptiness? Shunyata? I don't think it means what you think it means.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby binocular » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:51 am

Aloka wrote:
binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:[Picture of massive death and destruction due to tsunami or of a child writhing in pain from from a cancer] How do you explain this if there is a god?

By soul, devotional service, karma and rebirth.

Can you give an example, please ?


This is in roundabout Hare Krishna doctrine:

We are embodied souls. We are not the body, nor the mind (nor any of the other aggregates).
The aggregates are subject to birth, aging, illness and death.
When the soul identifies with the aggregates, as it typically does in ordinary godless life, there is suffering.
Such a soul is subject to karma and reincarnation.
A soul has a given relationship to God. When the soul acts in line with this relationship, ie. when it engages in devotional service, the soul doesn't suffer, even though the body in which it is, may be inflicted with disease, poverty, abuse etc.



- 'Problem of evil' (existence of suffering due to God not being both omnipotent and benevolent) and theodicy

If God is the Creator of all that exists, then He must be the origin of evil itself. This is where many religions either collapse or look for alternatives to explain the question of evil. But the Bible says clearly: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

It is wrongly implied that this world is for us to enjoy. It can be better compared to a prison. Existence of prison suggests the existence of a government. Criminals end up in prison due to their acts (karma), not because of government. The evil is really just a misused free will. We have free will to be in God's company as passive observers, servants, friends, children and lovers - or not. Either we're absorbed in any of these five basic relationships (rasas) with God or we want to be independent. In that case we're put into a material world with its laws and have to fight for our survival and position with countless competitors who got the same idea of independence. Just like prisoners. Intelligence means to look for ways how to get out. This is the beginning of a spiritual path.
http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/bhaktiyoga/opponents.htm


See more on their understanding of karma here - http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/dharma.htm
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:00 pm

Dhammakaya is pali word meaning "body of dhamma" and the word in its original use has probably nothing to do with the dhammakaya cult in Thailand. One of the mahayana definitions I remember is "heavenly law truth" but its not just spoken of in Mahayana. It is taught as the heavenly source of the Buddha's truth or wisdom: the dhamma.

The buddhist trikaya entails the Dhammakaya, sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya; Its the sambhogakaya which has its roots in Mahayana, not Therevada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trikaya
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Sam Vara » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:07 pm

binocular wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:No. It just assumes that there is a reality existing independently of people (like stars, indeed) and that the truth of propositions consists in their correspondence to that independent reality.

The above are assumptions that are impossible to evidence.


I'm not sure whether you mean that they are impossible to conclusively prove, rather than to provide evidence for. Every time something does not do what I want it to; or I note that I have no sensation in that part of the universe which I call my table, or Saturn: that is evidence that an aspect of reality exists independently of me. Quite a lot of reality, in fact.
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