And therefore, God does not exist!

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3208
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:30 pm

Coyote wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And not touching, of course, those arguments that are not "lame."


What arguments would you consider not "lame"?


I can't think of any that stand up to serious scrutiny.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

User avatar
rowboat
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Brentwood Bay, British Columbia

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby rowboat » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:18 pm

Modens Ponens: I saw that guy debating before. Therefore I really, really doubt that giants like Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris refused to debate him _ a mildly intelligent christian.


If you go back and read my post again you will find that I said only Richard Dawkins has been ducking William Lane Craig. Both Hitchens and Harris were soundly defeated in their debates, as was Lawrence Krauss. (The second video I posted is the Krauss debate.)

"Well, first let me say that it's an honour to be here at Notre Dame. And I'm very happy to be debating Dr. Craig - the one Christian Apologist who seems to have put the fear of god into many of my fellow atheists. I've actually gotten more than a few emails this week, that more or less read, 'brother, please don't blow this.'" - Sam Harris

By this point I anticipate that you, perhaps by the power of instinct alone, have assumed that (a) I am a Christian, and (b) I believe in god. So to save us both any further aggravation, I assure you neither is true.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 8292
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:42 pm

rowboat wrote:Both Hitchens and Harris were soundly defeated in their debates, as was Lawrence Krauss. (The second video I posted is the Krauss debate.)


For those of us who don't have time to watch the 2 hour videos, can you give us some examples of how they were soundly defeated in debate? The theistic arguments are mostly so weak, I find it hard to believe that they were defeated in debate. Of course who wins or loses is highly subjective and based on one's interpretation. So I'd like to see what great points the theists made against Hitchens and Harris.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 1119
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:15 pm

It might be worth considering that winning or losing debates has little to do with whether one's beliefs in a God or no God are truly justified. A debate is a staged event which relies heavily upon rhetoric, force of personality, and the effective presentation of arguments in a public setting. Even if a debater is ritually humiliated, loses the vote, and publicly recants his/her earlier position, one might remain convinced. They might be great spectator sports (well, ahead of dog-fighting and boxing, anyway) but I think they are better at confirming views than uncovering truth.

User avatar
rowboat
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Brentwood Bay, British Columbia

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby rowboat » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:29 pm

For those of us who don't have time to watch the 2 hour videos, can you give us some examples of how they were soundly defeated in debate? The theistic arguments are mostly so weak, I find it hard to believe that they were defeated in debate. Of course who wins or loses is highly subjective and based on one's interpretation. So I'd like to see what great points the theists made against Hitchens and Harris.


No, I don't think so, David. I'm sure you and others can find the time soon enough, if you have enough interest. Also William Lane Craig has published thirty books and over one hundred peer reviewed articles in philosophy and theology. I imagine these are widely available.

Better yet, below is his contact information. Wouldn't it be fun if you contacted Dr Craig? Maybe you can engage with him and test the soundness of his arguments directly.

http://rf.convio.net/site/Survey?SURVEY ... R_REQUESTS

I haven't watched it in some time but if this is the complete version then, after dealing with Richard Dawkins book "The God Delusion," WLC tangles with three Oxford professors in philosophy in the last half hour or so (as well as taking questions from the floor.)

Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 8292
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:37 pm

rowboat wrote:No, I don't think so, David. I'm sure you and others can find the time soon enough, if you have enough interest. Also William Lane Craig has published thirty books and over one hundred peer reviewed articles in philosophy and theology. I imagine these are widely available.


You can't even list a few one or two liners of his points? Surely there must be something that stuck out that made you think he soundly defeated them?

Sam Vara wrote:Even if a debater is ritually humiliated, loses the vote, and publicly recants his/her earlier position, one might remain convinced. They might be great spectator sports (well, ahead of dog-fighting and boxing, anyway) but I think they are better at confirming views than uncovering truth.


True; even if a debater makes some blunders, this does little to provide any support or refutation of a position, it could just be shooting the messenger instead of the message.

User avatar
rowboat
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Brentwood Bay, British Columbia

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby rowboat » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:38 pm

Sam Vara wrote:It might be worth considering that winning or losing debates has little to do with whether one's beliefs in a God or no God are truly justified. A debate is a staged event which relies heavily upon rhetoric, force of personality, and the effective presentation of arguments in a public setting. Even if a debater is ritually humiliated, loses the vote, and publicly recants his/her earlier position, one might remain convinced. They might be great spectator sports (well, ahead of dog-fighting and boxing, anyway) but I think they are better at confirming views than uncovering truth.


Yes, of course. I only brought William Lane Craig to the thread because I don't believe he fits anyone's definition of "lame" when it comes to argumentation.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 10803
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: New Zealand

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:42 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:Therefore I really, really doubt that giants like Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris refused to debate him ...

I have great respect for Dawkins' popular-level explanations of evolution an so on. He is an excellent science communicator, which was his day job.

That doesn't automatically make him a "giant" in other areas, and I didn't think much of The God Delusion, which I read soon after discovering the Dhamma. It soon became clear, from the book, an from interviews, that he had a poor grasp of the nuances of Christian Theology. Furthermore, at one point he discussed the concept of not-self (from a scientific POV, and he did it very well, it would have sounded good in a Dhamma talk) but seemed quite unaware that this was a key part of the Buddha's approach. Perhaps if he'd taken a little time to talk to some of his Oxford colleagues (such as Richard Gombrich) he would have had a better understanding of ideas outside of his own area.

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
rowboat
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Brentwood Bay, British Columbia

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby rowboat » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:49 pm

You can't even list a few one or two liners of his points? Surely there must be something that stuck out that made you think he soundly defeated them?


No, I'm not going to re-watch any of those videos, David. Once was enough. Besides, you really deserve the full William Lane Craig Experience. Save it for the weekend.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 4164
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: California, USA

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Mkoll » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:04 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Therefore I really, really doubt that giants like Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris refused to debate him ...

I have great respect for Dawkins' popular-level explanations of evolution an so on. He is an excellent science communicator, which was his day job.

That doesn't automatically make him a "giant" in other areas, and I didn't think much of The God Delusion, which I read soon after discovering the Dhamma. It soon became clear, from the book, an from interviews, that he had a poor grasp of the nuances of Christian Theology. Furthermore, at one point he discussed the concept of not-self (from a scientific POV, and he did it very well, it would have sounded good in a Dhamma talk) but seemed quite unaware that this was a key part of the Buddha's approach. Perhaps if he'd taken a little time to talk to some of his Oxford colleagues (such as Richard Gombrich) he would have had a better understanding of ideas outside of his own area.

:anjali:
Mike

I agree. His book The Selfish Gene was pretty revolutionary and is still very insightful.

But he's become a crusader against religion which is really quite sad given the man's high intelligence; he should have seen it's not his domain. It's certainly given him attention and notoriety with all of the perks that come along with it. It goes to show that even the smartest (not wisest) people can have serious blind spots.
Peace,
James

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 5876
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:01 am

Hi Rowboat
rowboat wrote:One of the brightest Christian Apologists is named William Lane Craig. Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Lawrence Krauss, many others, all have lost debates with Craig. Richard Dawkins once issued a challenge but then quickly thought better of it. In response to Dawkins, Craig decided to challenge Dawkins himself by inviting him to debate "The God Delusion" at Oxford's Sheldonian Theatre. Dawkins decided not to attend so WLC addressed an empty chair in his place.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... lane-craig
Dawkins has never issued a challenge, rather he has refused to deal with him for reasons he has given.

Anyone who argues from ignorance and claims it is valid by claiming verificationism collapsed really didn't win anything.

p.s. I got through about 1/4 page before wondering why any magazine claiming to be about philosophy (philosophynow) would publish him. it was painful to see 1+1=340934.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

User avatar
rowboat
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Brentwood Bay, British Columbia

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby rowboat » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:24 am

Actually Dawkins issued an open challenge to debate with anyone and then WLC stepped forward. Then Dawkins backpedaled and clarified, saying he would "only debate a Bishop or a Cardinal," which of course is laughable.

And now Dawkins is claiming the reason he won't debate William Lane Craig is because WLC "advocates genocide." Strange.

Isn't Richard Dawkins personal friends with Sam Harris? Harris is an advocate of torture while Chris Hedges accuses Harris of having genocidal thoughts of his own, in the form of a future nuclear first strike against a Muslim nation.

Sam Harris: I believe that I have successfully argued for the use of torture in any circumstance in which we would be willing to cause collateral damage (p198)

Given what many of us believe about the exigencies of our war on terrorism, the practice of torture, in certain circumstances, would seem to be not only permissible, but necessary. (p199)


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... on-atheism

Hedges: I write in the book that not believing in God is not dangerous. Not believing in sin is very dangerous. I think both the Christian right and the New Atheists in essence don’t believe in their own sin, because they externalize evil. Evil is always something out there that can be eradicated. For the New Atheists, it’s the irrational religious hordes. I mean, Sam Harris, at the end of his first book, asks us to consider a nuclear first strike on the Arab world. Both Hitchens and Harris defend the use of torture. Of course, they’re great supporters of preemptive war, and I don’t think this is accidental that their political agendas coalesce completely with the Christian right.

http://www.salon.com/2008/03/13/chris_hedges/
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 8292
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:46 am

I watched about 30 minutes into that video so far. I have not read Dawkins' work The God Delusion, but if it is as Craig states, then perhaps Dawkins did a poor job. But this does not diminish the message, due to a poor messenger.

Craig himself admits that he was shocked that Dawkins accepted his premises. Craig's premises are completely without basis and fact. Like most theistic arguments they contain the conclusion in the premises, classic petitio principii (fallacy).

User avatar
rowboat
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Brentwood Bay, British Columbia

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby rowboat » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:07 am

David Snyder: Craig's premises are completely without basis and fact. Like most theistic arguments they contain the conclusion in the premises, classic petitio principii (fallacy).


Oh my goodness. Isn't that quite the embarrassment for every one of those peer reviewed philosophy journals that published William Lane Craig. Over one hundred papers! But seriously, you should write to him and see if you can engage him in a discussion, David.

Here is his contact info where he takes questions from the public: http://rf.convio.net/site/Survey?SURVEY ... R_REQUESTS

Incidentally I just watched the last third of this debate with Lawrence Krauss and I have to admit it is almost interesting. They seem to despise one another. (At one point Krauss literally screams at WLC.)

Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 5876
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:47 am

rowboat wrote:Actually Dawkins issued an open challenge to debate with anyone and then WLC stepped forward. Then Dawkins backpedaled and clarified, saying he would "only debate a Bishop or a Cardinal," which of course is laughable.

And now Dawkins is claiming the reason he won't debate William Lane Craig is because WLC "advocates genocide." Strange.

that would be true if the refusal hadn't already happened previously.

I do not know who Dawkins is or is not friends with, not that that actually matters as it would be the underpinning reasons for such action being advocated that would show hipocracy on Dawkins part.
But just to note I have never seen wlc actually counter a scientific theory, nor win an argument because he counters with wordplay and fallacious points. Debates are, however, rarely won on the merits of the argument, and more often on the charisma of the participants.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

User avatar
rowboat
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Brentwood Bay, British Columbia

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby rowboat » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:15 am

that would be true if the refusal hadn't already happened previously.


That is an invention. It simply isn't true. I was closely following the whole back and forth between Dawkins and WLC while it was ongoing, largely because of my animosity for Hitchens, Dawkins, and Harris.

You can see the proper timeline and chain of events in the 7 minute video below:

Oxford atheist professor calls Richard Dawkins "a coward" for refusing to debate William Lane Craig



I do not know who Dawkins is or is not friends with, not that that actually matters as it would be the underpinning reasons for such action being advocated that would show hipocracy on Dawkins part.


I disagree. It certainly does matter. There is quite a difference between William Lane Craig's rhetorical reference to the biblical god of Abraham and his destruction of cities and cultures, in order to make a philosophical point, accusing WLC of advocacy for genocide on these grounds, and Sam Harris, when he talks about the real-world eventuality of a nuclear first strike against the Arab world. And I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are trying to say in the second part of your statement.

But just to note I have never seen wlc actually counter a scientific theory, nor win an argument because he counters with wordplay and fallacious points. Debates are, however, rarely won on the merits of the argument, and more often on the charisma of the participants.


Sam Harris has debated WLC more than once. Probably you should write to Harris and give him your advice directly in case the two should meet again.

"Well, first let me say that it's an honour to be here at Notre Dame. And I'm very happy to be debating Dr. Craig - the one Christian Apologist who seems to have put the fear of god into many of my fellow atheists. I've actually gotten more than a few emails this week, that more or less read, 'brother, please don't blow this.'" - Sam Harris


Fine work. Over a hundred peer reviewed papers in respected philosophy journals, and thirty books, and nobody has exposed him until you today. But you claim to be very familiar with the work of William Lane Craig and yet you also state that you have no idea who Richard Dawkins is.
Last edited by rowboat on Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

binocular
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby binocular » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:30 pm

cooran wrote:"Buddhism and the God Idea" by Nyanaponika Thera
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... didea.html

What exactly does this mean?
If one doesn't subsscribe to the ideas in this essay, then one is not fit to be a Buddhist?


tiltbillings wrote:And not touching, of course, those arguments that are not "lame."

I am still waiting to see some good arguments against God.


Sam Vara wrote:It might be worth considering that winning or losing debates has little to do with whether one's beliefs in a God or no God are truly justified.

Justified to whom? For what purpose?

chownah
Posts: 3022
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby chownah » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:41 pm

binocular wrote:I am still waiting to see some good arguments against God.


Here's one: I have never experienced anything that indicates that god exists.
chownah

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 8292
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:40 pm

rowboat wrote:
Over one hundred papers! But seriously, you should write to him and see if you can engage him in a discussion, David.


There are plenty of other scholars who are published just as much as Craig, if not more and have polar opposite views. Just because he is published does not make him right or does not even necessarily mean that he follows basic logic. I have been to some academia conventions and some papers get ripped apart in the response and discussion periods, literally right after the scholar presents the material (some respondents have access to the written paper several days before the meeting).

rowboat wrote:
Here is his contact info


No, I won't be contacting him. He is a religious zealot and nothing I say nor anyone else will change that. It is interesting to have this discussion here but no need to be disruptive over on another religionist's website just as I wouldn't go to a Christian forum and be disruptive there.

binocular wrote:I am still waiting to see some good arguments against God.


Here are some good quotes and points in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=11082

Babadhari
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:23 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: lalita ghat

Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Babadhari » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:24 pm

binocular wrote:
cooran wrote:"Buddhism and the God Idea" by Nyanaponika Thera
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... didea.html

What exactly does this mean?
If one doesn't subsscribe to the ideas in this essay, then one is not fit to be a Buddhist?




it means that one will never be liberated from dukkha while the clinging to a belief in a creator God exists. the author explains
the Buddha's teachings on this quite clearly. it is not a matter of being fit to be a Buddhist or belonging to Buddhism- its a matter of following what the Fully Awakened One realised to be free of samsara
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28


Return to “Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests