And therefore, God does not exist!

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Aloka
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Aloka » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:42 pm

binocular wrote:This is in roundabout Hare Krishna doctrine:



Oh, I thought the OP was refering to the Abrahamic god. I'm finding this thread quite confusing now.. and its also the end of my lunch break, so I'll say farewell for now.



.

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:55 pm

Aloka wrote:
binocular wrote:This is in roundabout Hare Krishna doctrine:



Oh, I thought the OP was refering to the Abrahamic god. I'm finding this thread quite confusing now.. and its also the end of my lunch break, so I'll say farewell for now.
And what she outlines in this: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19938&start=180#p280681 is no less susceptible to issue of evil than the usual Abrahamic god beliefs. It is a variation on a theme.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Babadhari » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:22 pm

binocular wrote:
Whatever happened to "admirable friendship being the whole of the holy life"?
Practicing the teachings _according to whom_? Whose version of the teachings? Whose version of what the Triple Gem is and what it means to take refuge in the Triple Gem?
How does one find one's place in the midst of all this variety and confusion?
But being aware of all that variety - how does one make choices in all that mess??
And the solution is to just assume one already fully understands the teachings of the Buddha precisely as he meant them?
Just the way each Protestant assumes themselves to have the sort of authority over the teachings of Jesus as the Catholic Pope?
Membership very much exists, and is relevant.
.

you have seem to have many doubts and many questions. i hope you find your place.
this is vastly off topic now
i wish you well
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:49 pm

The title of the thread includes God with a capital G thus, it is reasonable to assume this is referring to the typical Western view of God as the all-powerful Creator, not the impermanent devas capable of producing akusla actions like any other worldly being.

Paschal's Wager and other notions of the use of the term God also assume an all-powerful Creator, so the quotes and points made showing that the Buddha Dhamma has no such notion are completely appropriate.

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby daverupa » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:04 pm

I think a lot of folk probably consider devas and other requisite denizens of the cosmic worldview of the Nikayas to have some significance in and of themselves, in large measure because such beings and their cosmological orders have been so very important in the history of Western thinking about such matters. So proofs can feel important.

But the point in terms of Dhamma practice, as I see it, is that whatever cosmological structure may obtain, it is the case that an ethical dimension underpins that structure. Theisms tend to demand a reversal of this, such that the ethical order emanates from a Godhead which underpins it. But as the Dhamma describes, godlings et al appear when conditions are correct, according to the underpinning ethical order, and are not essences which exist apart. God cannot exist in this latter scenario.

This is the key issue: not whether or not there are other beings such as these, but whether or not they are (correctly) seen as inevitably beholden to the same ethical order as all other beings. Who cares if there really are e.g. hungry ghosts or not; the important thing is to recognize the common causative ethics of samsara for any beings which obtain, & not necessarily to recognize particular ontological emplacements.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:10 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:The title of the thread includes God with a capital G thus, it is reasonable to assume this is referring to the typical Western view of God as the all-powerful Creator, not the impermanent devas capable of producing akusla actions like any other worldly being.

Paschal's Wager and other notions of the use of the term God also assume an all-powerful Creator, so the quotes and points made showing that the Buddha Dhamma has no such notion are completely appropriate.

:anjali:
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Mkoll » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:14 pm

daverupa wrote:But the point in terms of Dhamma practice, as I see it, is that whatever cosmological structure may obtain, it is the case that an ethical dimension underpins that structure. Theisms tend to demand a reversal of this, such that the ethical order emanates from a Godhead which underpins it. But as the Dhamma describes, godlings et al appear when conditions are correct, according to the underpinning ethical order, and are not essences which exist apart. God cannot exist in this latter scenario.

:clap: :thumbsup: :goodpost: :twothumbsup: :bow:
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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Mkoll » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:22 pm

binocular wrote:
Mkoll wrote:I had issues with the whole concept of God that were cropping up as strong thoughts in my mind when I first became a Buddhist. As time has gone on, those thoughts have greatly subsided and carry little strength. It just doesn't bother me anymore because I've divested the entire concept of any attention or energy; it has lost its significance. It's not worth giving my energy and attention to because it tends to lead to trains of thought tinged with doubt and fear (stress). I basically used method 3 from MN 20 and it worked.

Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind.
-MN 19

I personally have no issue with God either. But I see that Buddhists are typically a very different kind of atheists than I am. And for me, this is a source of much concern. It is yet another point on which I and most Buddhists irreconcilably differ.

You say that you have no issue with God and yet you take a position of athiesm. Is this not taking issue? Why not take no position, take no issue? Not theist, not athiest, not agnostic, not any position in regards to this. As bodom's signature says:

Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

-Ajahn Chah
Peace,
James

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Aloka » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:28 pm

Mkoll wrote:
Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

-Ajahn Chah


Nice quote.


.

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:38 pm

binocular wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:And I don't represent buddhism.

Of course you do. The moment a person calls themselves "Buddhist" in public, the moment a person makes claims to the effect of "This is Buddhism, that is not Buddhism", this person is functioning as a representative of Buddhism.
This person might not be a good or an adequate representative of Buddhism, but he or she is funcitoning as a representative.


I meant this as a sort of disclaimer, not as a categorical statement.

The Buddha was supreme among men. There were/are arahats, anagamis, sakadagamis, sotapanas, people with mastery over the jhanas, and people who know the scriptures very well. There are bikkhus, samaneras and anagarikas. I am none of these. I have no teacher in person. Nor do I teach buddhism to students.

Therefore, what I say represents my opinions. The Buddha obviously wouldn't aprove of my smugness and would probably be more conciliatory. Nevertheless, I chose to post that. Therefore, what I said there doesn't represent the buddhist way.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Mkoll » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:42 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Are you familiar with the dhammakaya, that was supposed to be the source of some of the Buddha's wisdom. If you want to understand my understanding of god, I suggest you read about the Tao, and link that to the dhammakaya and maybe emptiness, to me God is the embodiment of Truth(Dhamma) and Wisdom, maybe its linked into kamma as well and its definetly a she presence, not a he.............

I've read the major Taoist philosophical works: Tao te Ching, Chuang Tzu, Zhuangzhi, Wen Tzu, Liezi. There is a vast difference between the Dhamma and the Tao.

In my experience, when one syncretizes, one's vision tends to become selective. Thus, one picks and chooses the parts that are amenable to one's old belief system and cuts out or even mutilates concepts so it all fits together for oneself. There's no abandoning of previous views. Rather, those views are used as a foundation for further views. There's no "starting fresh" with syncretism. NB I am not accusing you of this Lyndon but am simply presenting a perspective.

A rather poor simile is that the Buddha's teachings are like diamond, a mineral made up of a one single pure element: carbon. Syncretism is like tourmaline or most minerals which are aggregates of many elements.
Peace,
James

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby andyebarnes67 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:53 pm

New to this thread so forgive me for not continuing it's stream.
'God' or 'gods' can mean so many different things to different people that I think it difficult to discuss unless all are speaking of the same conceptual framework.
However, as regards a creator 'god', I can't but reflect that if dualism is an impermanent state of affairs, then there simply can't be a creator God.
How can God have created everything since whatever s/he creates can't include s/he-self since s/he pre-existed. S/he must be outside of 'everything', which is therefore not everything.
Metta

Andy Barnes
My comments are by nature, subjective interpretations from my mind. As such, they are never wrong, They are as they are. They are never right, They are as they are.

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby Schaublin » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:14 am

andyebarnes67 wrote:New to this thread so forgive me for not continuing it's stream.
'God' or 'gods' can mean so many different things to different people that I think it difficult to discuss unless all are speaking of the same conceptual framework.
However, as regards a creator 'god', I can't but reflect that if dualism is an impermanent state of affairs, then there simply can't be a creator God.
How can God have created everything since whatever s/he creates can't include s/he-self since s/he pre-existed. S/he must be outside of 'everything', which is therefore not everything.


Creator gods need creator gods and so on ad infinitum. An almost universal "need" in humans is some kind of explanation as to where the cosmos - and they themselves come from. The (almost) insurmountable problem of comprehension requires the (almost) impossible task of understanding that all matter (including oneself and one's own mind) is information - something that exists but is not "real". As to where the information comes from, I will leave that for another day...

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby binocular » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:48 am

tiltbillings wrote:And what she outlines in this: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19938&start=180#p280681 is no less susceptible to issue of evil than the usual Abrahamic god beliefs. It is a variation on a theme.

And it is susceptible to the issue of evil because ... you say so?

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:50 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And what she outlines in this: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19938&start=180#p280681 is no less susceptible to issue of evil than the usual Abrahamic god beliefs. It is a variation on a theme.

And it is susceptible to the issue of evil because ... you say so?
Because it is.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby binocular » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And what she outlines in this: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19938&start=180#p280681 is no less susceptible to issue of evil than the usual Abrahamic god beliefs. It is a variation on a theme.

And it is susceptible to the issue of evil because ... you say so?
Because it is.

So you're God?
You rule?
You're omniscient?
You're omnipotent?

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby binocular » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:00 am

Mkoll wrote:You say that you have no issue with God and yet you take a position of athiesm. Is this not taking issue? Why not take no position, take no issue? Not theist, not athiest, not agnostic, not any position in regards to this.

For all practical intents and purposes, I am an atheist.
I don't make a point of my atheism per se, nor of any other stance in matters of God, but I see that in order to get along with Buddhists, one needs to be a particular kind of atheist, have a specific atheist outlook.

That means, one has to believe e.g. that "creator gods need creator gods and so ad infinitum", "all theisms suffer from the problem of evil", "if God would be good, there would be no suffering, but since there is suffering, God either doesn't exist, or is evil" etc. etc.

Personally, I don't think the Pali Canon orders one to believe such things, but some Buddhist traditions and some powerful Buddhist individuals certainly do.

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:06 am

binocular wrote:So you're God?
You rule?
You're omniscient?
You're omnipotent?
Show us that it is not open to the question of evil. Prove me wrong. As I have said, I stand to be corrected, but snark, as this msg is, is not correction. Snark is snark. You will need to do better.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby binocular » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:Show us that it is not open to the question of evil. Prove me wrong. As I have said, I stand to be corrected, but snark, as this msg is, is not correction. Snark is snark. You will need to do better.

So my being accepted into a Buddhist group now depends on my successfully changing the minds of Buddhists in matters of God?
That's a tall order.

The one thing you and several others here have conclusively proven is that I am not welcome here, and have no place among Buddhists such as yourself.

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Re: And therefore, God does not exist!

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:25 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Show us that it is not open to the question of evil. Prove me wrong. As I have said, I stand to be corrected, but snark, as this msg is, is not correction. Snark is snark. You will need to do better.

So my being accepted into a Buddhist group now depends on my successfully changing the minds of Buddhists in matters of God?
That's a tall order.

The one thing you and several others here have conclusively proven is that I am not welcome here, and have no place among Buddhists such as yourself.
Accepted into a Buddhist group? Changing minds? These are your issues, not mine. If you cannot answer the questions I raised, it is of no matter to me, and it certainly does make you any less a Buddhist. Being or not being a Buddhist is for you to decide, not me or anyone else. Don't go laying your self-made issues at my feet.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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