Why would a creator god need a creator god?

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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:25 pm

binocular wrote:
manas wrote:I always interpreted that witticism as really meaning something like, "most human beings seem to have a need to believe in a Higher Power, and it is this need that led to them projecting this infantile wish onto reality; and thus the belief in God, and thus God as a concept (and by extension, actuality), is a human invention". I think that if we 'read between the lines' and try to see what Voltaire was really getting at, that we will see, he means something other than what the literal meaning appears to say. That's my take on it, anyway.

The belief in some kind of higher power is not infantile, though. It's simply realistic. Just wait until lightning strikes you or your house while you're in it. Or until you first-hand witness some display of massive power, like a flood, a hailstorm, a big fire, a meteorite striking the Earth, or a tiger having a go at you. This IS higher power.

It is evident that there are forces at work in this Universe against which humans are powerless, forces which in fact are Higher Power.
Forces designed and set into motion by an omniscient, omnipotent creator god, assuming that there is such a thing as a creator god.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby binocular » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:40 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Forces designed and set into motion by an omniscient, omnipotent creator god, assuming that there is such a thing as a creator god.

Is that what you believe?
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby Jetavan » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:11 pm

binocular wrote:
Jetavan wrote:A Mormon would argue that all the Deities would agree with the judgements (regarding damnation or paradise) of any other Deity. There is no conflict among the Deities.

Then those deities are effectively non-distinguishable from one another, and might as well be all one!
Each has a separate will, body, and person; but in intention, they are the same, equally Divine.
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby binocular » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:29 pm

Jetavan wrote:Each has a separate will, body, and person; but in intention, they are the same, equally Divine.

Talk about a divine flock!
:woohoo:
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:35 pm

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Forces designed and set into motion by an omniscient, omnipotent creator god, assuming that there is such a thing as a creator god.

Is that what you believe?
So, if there is a creator god (your locution), it did not set the forces of nature into motion? Is that what you believe?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby binocular » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:45 am

tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Forces designed and set into motion by an omniscient, omnipotent creator god, assuming that there is such a thing as a creator god.

Is that what you believe?
So, if there is a creator god (your locution), it did not set the forces of nature into motion? Is that what you believe?


"There is a creator god, it did not set the forces of nature into motion," does not apply.
"There is no creator god, it did not set the forces of nature into motion," does not apply.
"There is a creator god, it did set the forces of nature into motion," does not apply.
"There is no creator god, it did set the forces of nature into motion," does not apply.

From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on.


If you think I'm mincing words, then it might be time to ask yourself whether you think the Buddha was mincing words too.
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:05 am

binocular wrote:"There is a creator god, it did not set the forces of nature into motion," does not apply.
"There is no creator god, it did not set the forces of nature into motion," does not apply.
"There is a creator god, it did set the forces of nature into motion," does not apply.
"There is no creator god, it did set the forces of nature into motion," does not apply.

From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on.


If you think I'm mincing words, then it might be time to ask yourself whether you think the Buddha was mincing words too.
Mincing words? That hardly touches what you are doing. You are the one who introduced the locution creator god without defining what you meant by it, and now you pull out the tetralemma (rather poorly applied), showing no basis for applying the tetralemma to your undefined idea of a creator god, and you have shown no reason to associate in any way the idea of "transmigration" or the Buddha to your undefined idea of a creator god and its application by you to the tetralemma. You have stuck your words in a blender and pushed the "liquefy" button.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:You have stuck your words in a blender and pushed the "liquefy" button.


That alone is a masterpiece and would have sufficed on its own.

I am unashamedly going to be guilty of breaking the 2nd Precept, or at least tell you I intend to steal it and use it for my own purposes, here or elsewhere....
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby binocular » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:27 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Mincing words? That hardly touches what you are doing. You are the one who introduced the locution creator god without defining what you meant by it, and now you pull out the tetralemma (rather poorly applied), showing no basis for applying the tetralemma to your undefined idea of a creator god, and you have shown no reason to associate in any way the idea of "transmigration" or the Buddha to your undefined idea of a creator god and its application by you to the tetralemma. You have stuck your words in a blender and pushed the "liquefy" button.

You you you.

What would it take for you to actually talk about your needs, interests, and concerns?
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:40 pm

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Mincing words? That hardly touches what you are doing. You are the one who introduced the locution creator god without defining what you meant by it, and now you pull out the tetralemma (rather poorly applied), showing no basis for applying the tetralemma to your undefined idea of a creator god, and you have shown no reason to associate in any way the idea of "transmigration" or the Buddha to your undefined idea of a creator god and its application by you to the tetralemma. You have stuck your words in a blender and pushed the "liquefy" button.

You you you.

What would it take for you to actually talk about your needs, interests, and concerns?
In other words, you are simply playing games here rather than dealing with ideas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:...I have yet to see an explanation of why there needs to be a god to explain anything.


Based on the conversations I've had with theists, the assumption of God seems to be an article of faith rather than a rational position.
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:39 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:...I have yet to see an explanation of why there needs to be a god to explain anything.


Based on the conversations I've had with theists, the assumption of God seems to be an article of faith rather than a rational position.
The idea of god does get used to explain and justify things.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby binocular » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:56 am

tiltbillings wrote:In other words, you are simply playing games here rather than dealing with ideas.

In other words, you simply want to have the upper hand.

:shrug:
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:05 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:In other words, you are simply playing games here rather than dealing with ideas.

In other words, you simply want to have the upper hand.

:shrug:
That is certainly a non sequitur. I am simply looking to discuss the ideas raised.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby binocular » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:41 am

tiltbillings wrote:I am simply looking to discussed the ideas raised.

And you want them discussed within the limits you define, within the scope of what you find acceptable. Anything beyond that, you deem wrong, false, irrational, trolling and such.
Your way or the highway.

Guess what? The highway it is.
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:Based on the conversations I've had with theists, the assumption of God seems to be an article of faith rather than a rational position.
The idea of god does get used to explain and justify things.


My impression is that belief in God is essentially an emotional response, and not necessarily rational at all. Human existence is fragile and uncertain, so there is a psychological need for meaning and comfort - and it seems that belief in God and an afterlife are common expressions of that need.
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:49 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
My impression is that belief in God is essentially an emotional response, and not necessarily rational at all. Human existence is fragile and uncertain, so there is a psychological need for meaning and comfort - and it seems that belief in God and an afterlife are common expressions of that need.
Sure; however, spend some time reading various theologians from various traditions and watch the efforts at trying put a rational face on god.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:52 pm

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I am simply looking to discussed the ideas raised.

And you want them discussed within the limits you define, within the scope of what you find acceptable. Anything beyond that, you deem wrong, false, irrational, trolling and such.
Your way or the highway.

Guess what? The highway it is.
I think you are talking about yourself here, it would seem. Also, this approach of yours is certainly one way to avoid dealing with difficult questions. As for the "highway," good luck with that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:16 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
My impression is that belief in God is essentially an emotional response, and not necessarily rational at all. Human existence is fragile and uncertain, so there is a psychological need for meaning and comfort - and it seems that belief in God and an afterlife are common expressions of that need.

Sure; however, spend some time reading various theologians from various traditions and watch the efforts at trying put a rational face on god.


Yes, a great deal of rationalisation goes on, thought I think this rationalisation is becoming progressively more difficult and convoluted as science fills in the gaps. For example as creationism lost credibility Intelligent Design was developed as a way of trying to cope with evolution, but in fact ID doesn't stand up to close scrutiny....and so on.
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