Trees

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Trees

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:52 pm

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Trees

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:17 pm

Both very impressive, and the first one a real labour of love. It's official, then: five separate "roots", and they definitely don't meet up in some ur-religion.
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Re: Trees

Postby waterchan » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:24 pm

:thumbsup: Nice!
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: Trees

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:16 pm

That first one is great! It shows how old Buddhism, Jainism are and from the same Shramana, non-Vedic root.

:thumbsup:
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Re: Trees

Postby waterchan » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:08 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:That first one is great! It shows how old Buddhism, Jainism are and from the same Shramana, non-Vedic root.

:thumbsup:


I face no end of trouble with amateur theologists who insist otherwise...
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: Trees

Postby SarathW » Thu May 01, 2014 1:53 am

Great study guide.
Where does David N. Snyder tradition fitting here? ;)

Arthur C Clarke would have changed his mind if had seen this tree! :)

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=16297
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Re: Trees

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu May 01, 2014 2:29 am

SarathW wrote:Great study guide.
Where does David N. Snyder tradition fitting here? ;)


(No tradition / lineage, I am not into schisms and also not a bhikkhu.) However, my philosophy is the same as some other Theravada Buddhists; "original Buddhism" :tongue: whatever that is. For me Suttanta, early teachings, as far down on the Shramana trunk / root as one can go, back to Dipankara or even Taṇhaṃkara, if possible.
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Re: Trees

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 01, 2014 2:45 am

SarathW wrote:Great study guide.
Of the two, the first one is the better one. From a Buddhist perspective the author certainly got it right about the Buddhist and Jain traditions coming from a non-Vedic, non-Brahmanical root. There is a lot missing in the portrayal of the Buddhist limbs, but, over all it is interesting document to spend some time with.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Trees

Postby SarathW » Thu May 01, 2014 3:02 am

Agree.
Is there a religion which embrace all (say main) religions?
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Re: Trees

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 01, 2014 3:12 am

SarathW wrote:Agree.
Is there a religion which embrace all (say main) religions?
Baha'i claims to.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Trees

Postby SarathW » Thu May 01, 2014 3:59 am

Yes that's what I thought.
Did you find that in the Tree?
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Re: Trees

Postby beeblebrox » Thu May 01, 2014 4:14 am

SarathW wrote:Yes that's what I thought.
Did you find that in the Tree?


Hi SarathW,

It is lime green right on the edge, in between Islam (forest green) and Buddhism (navy blue). :geek:

:anjali:
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Re: Trees

Postby SarathW » Fri May 02, 2014 12:16 am

Thanks BB.
In Sri Lanka when you say Galduwa and Delduwa tradition of Ramanna Nikaya,
Is there a different in teaching or it is just another name of the monastery?
Aren't they talking to each other?
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Re: Trees

Postby Phena » Fri May 02, 2014 3:12 am

Thanks for posting the links tiltbillings. This is very interesting looking at the roots of different spiritual traditions, particularly Buddhism. It is interesting to note that one interpretation shows Buddhism as arising from Vedic roots, and the more detailed one showing it arising from the Samana tradition. Is there more or less evidence to suggest one or the other views, or for that matter, that supports both? How is it that there might be a difference of opinion on the roots of Buddhism?

Would be interested to know if anyone could shed some light on this.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Trees

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 02, 2014 3:15 am

Phena wrote:Thanks for posting the links tiltbillings. This is very interesting looking at the roots of different spiritual traditions, particularly Buddhism. It is interesting to note that one interpretation shows Buddhism as arising from Vedic roots, and the more detailed one showing it arising from the Samana tradition. Is there more or less evidence to suggest one or the other views, or for that matter, that supports both? How is it that there might be a difference of opinion on the roots of Buddhism?

Would be interested to know if anyone could shed some light on this.

Thanks in advance.
The state of the art scholarship is far more likely to see Buddhism arising out of the non-Vedic shramana stream rather than the Vedic stream.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Trees

Postby Phena » Fri May 02, 2014 3:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Phena wrote:Thanks for posting the links tiltbillings. This is very interesting looking at the roots of different spiritual traditions, particularly Buddhism. It is interesting to note that one interpretation shows Buddhism as arising from Vedic roots, and the more detailed one showing it arising from the Samana tradition. Is there more or less evidence to suggest one or the other views, or for that matter, that supports both? How is it that there might be a difference of opinion on the roots of Buddhism?

Would be interested to know if anyone could shed some light on this.

Thanks in advance.
The state of the art scholarship is far more likely to see Buddhism arising out of the non-Vedic shramana stream rather than the Vedic stream.

Would you say, that the arising from Vedic roots view has been superseded by the "The state of the art scholarship" you mention? Do you have any sources for this?

It is interesting that the more accepted view has been that Buddhism arose from Vedic roots. Is there some sound evidence for this, or is it more the case there has been some co-opting of Buddhism, retrospectively, by Hinduism?
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Re: Trees

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 02, 2014 4:05 am

Phena wrote: Do you have any sources for this?

It is interesting that the more accepted view has been that Buddhism arose from Vedic roots. Is there some sound evidence for this, or is it more the case there has been some co-opting of Buddhism, retrospectively, by Hinduism?
Look at Peter Harvey's excellent INTRODUCTION TO BUDDHISM, but the scholarship for this mostly found in papers in scholarly journals.

As Rupert Gethin states (THE FOUNDATIONS OF BUDDHISM p 9): "Any quest for this historical Buddha must begin with the s'ramana tradition." And very clearly, as we read the suttas, they really are anti-Vedic in their thrust. The Buddha will take Vedic and Brahmanical concepts and gives a very different twist in meaning. This is very clearly seen in how the Buddha changes the meaning of kamma from ritual action to ethical action. This sort of thing is also talked about by Richard Gombrich in his more recent books.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Trees

Postby Phena » Fri May 02, 2014 8:51 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Phena wrote: Do you have any sources for this?

It is interesting that the more accepted view has been that Buddhism arose from Vedic roots. Is there some sound evidence for this, or is it more the case there has been some co-opting of Buddhism, retrospectively, by Hinduism?
Look at Peter Harvey's excellent INTRODUCTION TO BUDDHISM, but the scholarship for this mostly found in papers in scholarly journals.

As Rupert Gethin states (THE FOUNDATIONS OF BUDDHISM p 9): "Any quest for this historical Buddha must begin with the s'ramana tradition." And very clearly, as we read the suttas, they really are anti-Vedic in their thrust. The Buddha will take Vedic and Brahmanical concepts and gives a very different twist in meaning. This is very clearly seen in how the Buddha changes the meaning of kamma from ritual action to ethical action. This sort of thing is also talked about by Richard Gombrich in his more recent books.

Thanks tiltbillings for the references and quote. Thanks also for your sutta interpretation. I also detect the "anti-Vedic thrust" you mention. It's quite clearly there, and in a not so subtle way in certain suttas. This is the point I'm actually raising: as this is clear from the suttas, why then has it gained traction and remained the dominant view of Buddhism's origin? There seems to be some clear division on this. So is this just misinterpretation, or are there more expedient reasons at play?
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Re: Trees

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri May 02, 2014 3:54 pm

The term Nirvana (Pali: Nibbana) was not a Hindu term until the Bhagavada Gita and other later Hindu works, which were composed after the Buddhist Tipitaka. Scholars agree that it was first a Jain and Buddhist term long before Hinduism incorporated it. The Yoga Sutras also came after the Tipitaka and the 8 limbed description found there is no doubt influenced from the Buddhist 8 fold path. Additionally, the Hindu importance put on ahimsa (nonviolence) also came later after Jainism and Buddhism were well established religions on the subcontinent. Therefore, it can be argued that Hinduism actually borrowed many of its ideas from Jainism and Buddhism, not the other way around.

From my article at http://www.DharmaPaths.com/
source: Fowler, Jeaneane D. (2012), The Bhagavad Gita: A Text and Commentary for Students, Sussex Academic Press
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Re: Trees

Postby Phena » Fri May 02, 2014 11:00 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:The term Nirvana (Pali: Nibbana) was not a Hindu term until the Bhagavada Gita and other later Hindu works, which were composed after the Buddhist Tipitaka. Scholars agree that it was first a Jain and Buddhist term long before Hinduism incorporated it. The Yoga Sutras also came after the Tipitaka and the 8 limbed description found there is no doubt influenced from the Buddhist 8 fold path. Additionally, the Hindu importance put on ahimsa (nonviolence) also came later after Jainism and Buddhism were well established religions on the subcontinent. Therefore, it can be argued that Hinduism actually borrowed many of its ideas from Jainism and Buddhism, not the other way around.

From my article at http://www.DharmaPaths.com/
source: Fowler, Jeaneane D. (2012), The Bhagavad Gita: A Text and Commentary for Students, Sussex Academic Press

Thanks for the reply David. From what you say it appears there has been some appropriation of Buddhist ideas, concepts and even that Buddhism emerged from a Vedic source.

The question still remains, and that I have, is why this diametric view has and is still being propagated.
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