What do you mean?Sam Vara wrote: I can't make much sense of this, and cetana and kamma appear to be similarly "compromised".
Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free will?
- tiltbillings
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Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
Yes, that's my understanding of the Buddhist view, and, indeed, the only one I can make sense of: that kamma is sankhata.tiltbillings wrote:Free will is not absolutely free in Buddhist terms. That free will is absolutely free has not ever been claimed in the Buddhist context that I have ever seen. What has been claimed is that choice is possible within the context of our conditioning. And I would rather choose the Buddhist model over the theist model which makes some big divine intelligence responsible for this all. As Mark Twain supposedly said:
- If there is a God, He is a malign thug.
I don't really have a position on divine thuggery, but presumably for those who are keen on this type of thing, the apparent malignity of God is no practical impediment to a belief in his existence:
(William Blake), etc.The wrath of the lion is the wisdom of God.
Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
I mean that some opponents of the compatibilist position think that the conception of freedom it requires is insufficiently radical and somehow compromised by being causally conditioned. But a similar conception of kamma is required in Dependent Origination, for example, and that works fine for me.tiltbillings wrote:What do you mean?Sam Vara wrote: I can't make much sense of this, and cetana and kamma appear to be similarly "compromised".
From your last post
I think we completely agree on this.Free will is not absolutely free in Buddhist terms. That free will is absolutely free has not ever been claimed in the Buddhist context that I have ever seen. What has been claimed is that choice is possible within the context of our conditioning
- tiltbillings
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Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
Let me add to this, by Buddhist context I mean what we see in the Nikayas (and probably the commentaries).Sam Vara wrote:I think we completely agree on this.tiltbillings wrote: Free will is not absolutely free in Buddhist terms. That free will is absolutely free has not ever been claimed in the Buddhist context that I have ever seen. What has been claimed is that choice is possible within the context of our conditioning
And yes, I'd say we agree.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
The notion that the universe is basically good comes across as somewhat "problematic"(for lack of a better word). Why would an almighty God create a world where human beings destroy other life forms just to stay alive? Cosmic good? More like cosmic nightmare...lyndon taylor wrote:Are you a father, are you in the habit of forcing your kids to do what you say or do you give them free choice to make there own decisions??? I don't think any god could possibly prevent all this hardship except by eliminating freedom of choice, you talk about how terrible the world is now, have you ever considered it could be a lot worse than it is, and that maybe, just maybe, there are divine forces holding things together more so than they might be without those divine forces, As I see God as the embodiment of truth or Dhamma, without this "God" you would have no Dhamma and no Buddha, Dhamma is much more than just words the Buddha spoke, it the cosmic good and order of all things, the Buddha didn't invent the Dhamma, he just taught it, it was there long long before him.
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
- lyndon taylor
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Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
There is cosmic good and cosmic bad, Having a being that is good doesn't mean you can blame him/her for all the bad in the world.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John
http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
- tiltbillings
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Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
If the universe is the product of the god's creation that god is, indeed, liable.lyndon taylor wrote:There is cosmic good and cosmic bad, Having a being that is good doesn't mean you can blame him/her for all the bad in the world.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
The amount of views one has to create in order to prop up some form of "uber-God" view is astounding. All these questions with no good answers arise when one posits such a thing existing and one must perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to keep the view afloat.
Much better for a Buddhist I think, to let it go. Remembering the simile of the raft...
Much better for a Buddhist I think, to let it go. Remembering the simile of the raft...
MN 22 wrote:Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas."
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
- lyndon taylor
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Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
So if you create a child, raise him as you will, and as an adult he goes postal and kills 25 people that's your fault because he is your creation???tiltbillings wrote:If the universe is the product of the god's creation that god is, indeed, liable.lyndon taylor wrote:There is cosmic good and cosmic bad, Having a being that is good doesn't mean you can blame him/her for all the bad in the world.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John
http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
- tiltbillings
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Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
Given the omnipotence and omniscience of a creator god, a more appropriate analogy is: If I were to make a robot that was capable of making "free" choices and one of those choices was to kill, it would be hard not to hold me responsible for a death committed by that robot, particularly if I had the power to stop the killing before it happened. If I knew without question that it would kill and I set it loose anyway, it would be no different from my killing directly, and there would be no way I could absolve myself from responsibility.lyndon taylor wrote:So if you create a child, raise him as you will, and as an adult he goes postal and kills 25 people that's your fault because he is your creation???tiltbillings wrote:If the universe is the product of the god's creation that god is, indeed, liable.lyndon taylor wrote:There is cosmic good and cosmic bad, Having a being that is good doesn't mean you can blame him/her for all the bad in the world.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- lyndon taylor
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Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
So you would think it better to think of God's creation as robots rather than children, you're twisted Tilt!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John
http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
If God was the manufacturer of a faulty product that kills millions of lives each year, shouldn't he be liable?lyndon taylor wrote:There is cosmic good and cosmic bad, Having a being that is good doesn't mean you can blame him/her for all the bad in the world.
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
- tiltbillings
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- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
Thank you for sharing your thoughts; however, we can switch to children, since you do not like robots.lyndon taylor wrote:So you would think it better to think of God's creation as robots rather than children, you're twisted Tilt!!
Your child analogy, as you put it forth, was meaningless, since the parents lacked god like powers, and keep in mind, we are talking about god who has great powers, not ordinary parents. So, parents with powers it is.
Let us make the parents simply omnipotent. We can leave out omniscience. Now, the omnipotent parents, in conceiving their child, are able structure its character in such away that killing was part of the possibilities of the child could choose do, or the parents could leave out that possibility of killing, leaving the child such that it could never kill. The parents go for the option that allows for the child to kill for whatever that the child may come up with to kill. The child opts to kill for selfish reasons. Though the omnipotent parents could have stopped the killing, they opt not to. So, the parents bear liability for that killing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
Is it worth questioning the assumption that the world is broken and could've been better and if it were created, then it's the creator's fault for making it so bad?
It has been argued that this is the best possible world and that freedom to choose trumps the tragic outcomes of wrong choices. In any case theologians have grappled with this problem for centuries and there are some reasonable answers which don't seem to be acknowledged here.
It has been argued that this is the best possible world and that freedom to choose trumps the tragic outcomes of wrong choices. In any case theologians have grappled with this problem for centuries and there are some reasonable answers which don't seem to be acknowledged here.
Last edited by Dan74 on Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_
- tiltbillings
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Re: Omnipotent and Omniscient God: Do we really have free wi
"reasonable answers" And they would be?Dan74 wrote:Is it worth questioning the assumption that the world is broken and could've been better and if it were created, then it's the creator's fault for making it so bad?
I has been argued I think that this is the best possible world and that freedom to choose trumps the tragic outcomes of wrong choices. In any case theologians have grappled with this problem for centuries and there are some reasonable answers which don't seem to be acknowledged here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723