Obedience to Authority - Terrifying Experience

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Re: Obedience to Authority - Terrifying Experience

Postby alan » Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:04 pm

But I'm so happy it happened.
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Re: Obedience to Authority - Terrifying Experience

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:11 pm

alan wrote:But I'm so happy it happened.


Me too!
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Re: Obedience to Authority - Terrifying Experience

Postby Kim OHara » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:17 am

alan wrote:Most people are rule-followers. Few people think for themselves.
Independence of mind might be a kammic trait; I'm not sure where it comes from. But for sure it takes a solid degree of self awareness and confidence to look directly at an authority figure and say: No, I'm not doing that.

Is it pessimistic to say we are all primates, and follow social structures established millions of years ago? Not necessarily. It seems to be the most realistic assumption.

I remember a story that was floating around decades ago (and dated from the Korean War, well before the time I heard it) to the effect that the communists in North Korea looked at all their American and South Korean prisoners of war and identified the 5% who were leaders (not necessarily officers, btw!), then segregated them under high security and left the 95% under low security in the knowledge that they wouldn't try to escape.
:shrug:
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Re: Obedience to Authority - Terrifying Experience

Postby Mkoll » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:24 am

It must be nice to always see the bright side of life, Sam. And in that honor, I present the classic...

Peace,
James
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Re: Obedience to Authority - Terrifying Experience

Postby Sam Vara » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:23 am

Mkoll wrote:It must be nice to always see the bright side of life, Sam.


It is, and many thanks for the clip. But it's probably more important not to needlessly see the dark side of life when it isn't there.

While I walked, the fear and dread came upon me; I neither stood nor sat nor lay down till I had subdued that fear and dread. While I stood, the fear and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor sat nor lay down till I had subdued that fear and dread. While I sat, the fear and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor stood nor lay down till I had subdued that fear and dread. While I lay down, the fear and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor stood nor sat down till I had subdued that fear and dread.

http://suttacentral.net/en/mn4
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Re: Obedience to Authority - Terrifying Experience

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:13 am

Kim: "I remember a story that was floating around decades ago (and dated from the Korean War, well before the time I heard it) to the effect that the communists in North Korea looked at all their American and South Korean prisoners of war and identified the 5% who were leaders (not necessarily officers, btw!), then segregated them under high security and left the 95% under low security in the knowledge that they wouldn't try to escape. "
:shrug:


Interesting! I attended a Skinnerian Behavior Modification class conducted by a North Korean psychology professor (Dr. Sherman Yen), who defected to South Korea, and then to The US during Post WWII era. He pretty much said the same thing.

It was interesting to me that all skills, means, and technology can be used for benefit or detriment. In the case under discussion it was the techniques used in Pavlovian and/or Skinnerian behavior modification for the control of animal behavior as applied to prisoners of war. Dr. Skinner spent a great deal of time addressing the necessity of following an agreed upon moral set of ethics when dealing with clients in therapy, because he realized how powerful his techniques were and that veritably all those subjected to them were vulnerable to his techniques methods of behavior control. :jawdrop:

I found online a paper discussing this controversial topic of ethics: (see page 431 , para 2 of the following PDF link.):

http://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/c ... clevstlrev
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: Obedience to Authority - Terrifying Experience

Postby Kim OHara » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:33 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:
Kim: "I remember a story that was floating around decades ago (and dated from the Korean War, well before the time I heard it) to the effect that the communists in North Korea looked at all their American and South Korean prisoners of war and identified the 5% who were leaders (not necessarily officers, btw!), then segregated them under high security and left the 95% under low security in the knowledge that they wouldn't try to escape. "
:shrug:


Interesting! I attended a Skinnerian Behavior Modification class conducted by a North Korean psychology professor (Dr. Sherman Yen), who defected to South Korea, and then to The US during Post WWII era. He pretty much said the same thing.

It was interesting to me that all skills, means, and technology can be used for benefit or detriment. In the case under discussion it was the techniques used in Pavlovian and/or Skinnerian behavior modification for the control of animal behavior as applied to prisoners of war. Dr. Skinner spent a great deal of time addressing the necessity of following an agreed upon moral set of ethics when dealing with clients in therapy, because he realized how powerful his techniques were and that veritably all those subjected to them were vulnerable to his techniques methods of behavior control. :jawdrop:

I found online a paper discussing this controversial topic of ethics: (see page 431 , para 2 of the following PDF link.):

http://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/c ... clevstlrev

Thanks, Ron.
Yes, that's the period I'm referring to - and the prisons stuff fits right in.
Which way Abu Ghraib? :spy:

:namaste:
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