Space cadet...

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Space cadet...

Postby appicchato » Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:51 pm

Jonathan Ive, senior vice president of industrial design at Apple.

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Re: Space cadet...

Postby Ben » Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:03 pm

Thanks Venerable for sharing.
Not that I am overly attached to imagery, but...
It just amazes me that people think they can disrespect the triple gem by doing stuff like this but would never - ever - think of doing the same when it comes to imagery of Mohammad or Christ.
Kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Space cadet...

Postby pink_trike » Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:30 pm

This is the era when everything that is high will be brought down and everything low will be brought up. From it will eventually arise middle ground, as it has many times before. Time to hang loose while the phenomenal world once again shakes itself out and reorders so that the middle will re-emerge. A Native American elder recently said that this is the time to paddle our canoes to the middle of the raging river, steer carefully, and ride it out.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Re: Space cadet...

Postby appicchato » Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:44 pm

pink_trike wrote:A Native American elder recently said that this is the time to paddle our canoes to the middle of the raging river, steer carefully, and ride it out.


Between the banks of pain and pleasure flows the river of life. It is only when the mind refuses to flow with life, and gets stuck on the banks, that it becomes a problem.
-Nisargatta Maharaj
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Re: Space cadet...

Postby BlackBird » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:26 pm

Ben wrote:It just amazes me that people think they can disrespect the triple gem by doing stuff like this but would never - ever - think of doing the same when it comes to imagery of Mohammad or Christ.
Kind regards


Well, we're not exactly going to be mailing out the death threats are we.
Such is ignorance, I doubt the thought that their photoshop might be seen as disrespectful even crossed their mind.

I go back and think that perhaps this is one of the many reasons the Buddha suggested the Bodhi tree be his image. You can hardly photoshop a tree now can ya'
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Space cadet...

Postby pink_trike » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:35 pm

BlackBird wrote:
Ben wrote:It just amazes me that people think they can disrespect the triple gem by doing stuff like this but would never - ever - think of doing the same when it comes to imagery of Mohammad or Christ.
Kind regards


I go back and think that perhaps this is one of the many reasons the Buddha suggested the Bodhi tree be his image. '

Hi BlackBird,

Can you point me at this?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Re: Space cadet...

Postby BlackBird » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:41 pm

pink_trike wrote:Can you point me at this?


Okay after a good hard look, I couldn't find much.
I know I read this somewhere, that the Buddha disapproved of people making rupa images of himself and instead suggested the Bodhi tree. I also remember it wasn't a hodge podge source.

But alas, if I can't find it I've got no right to say it, so I'm sorry for the mistake.

Edit: This is the closest I've got.

It is well-known to all students of Indian art that
in the earliest Buddhist monuments ¢w at Saanehii,
Baarhut and Bodhgayaa-the figure of Buddha is not
represented, but replaced by some symbol, such as
the Wheel of the Law, or an empty throne. Modern
Buddhists can furnish no explanation of this
peculiar fact, and European writers (among them,
M.Foucher(1)) have generally been content to accept
the Indian view that, if early Buddhist art did not
represent the Buddha, it was 'because it was not
customary to do so'. I do not think any European
scholar(2) has noted the fact that a definite
embargo on the representation of Buddha is referred
to in the Chinese Tripi.taka. In Chapter 48 of the
Vinaya of the Sarvaastivaadins (3) there is a long
passage which deals with the decoration of
monasteries. Anaathapi.n.dika says to Buddha:
'World-honoured one, if images of yours are not
allowed to be made, pray may we not at least make
images of Bodhisattvas(4) in attendance upon you?'
Buddha then grants this permission.



- http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-MEL/waley.htm

Also this may be of interest:

Theravadans pointed to Gautama Buddha's objection to any attachment or adoration of Rupakaya (Buddha's physical form)

- http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/colle ... -03_02.pdf
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Space cadet...

Postby pink_trike » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:11 pm

BlackBird wrote:
pink_trike wrote:Can you point me at this?


Okay after a good hard look, I couldn't find much.
I know I read this somewhere, that the Buddha disapproved of people making rupa images of himself and instead suggested the Bodhi tree. I also remember it wasn't a hodge podge source.

But alas, if I can't find it I've got no right to say it, so I'm sorry for the mistake.

Edit: This is the closest I've got.

It is well-known to all students of Indian art that
in the earliest Buddhist monuments ¢w at Saanehii,
Baarhut and Bodhgayaa-the figure of Buddha is not
represented, but replaced by some symbol, such as
the Wheel of the Law, or an empty throne. Modern
Buddhists can furnish no explanation of this
peculiar fact, and European writers (among them,
M.Foucher(1)) have generally been content to accept
the Indian view that, if early Buddhist art did not
represent the Buddha, it was 'because it was not
customary to do so'. I do not think any European
scholar(2) has noted the fact that a definite
embargo on the representation of Buddha is referred
to in the Chinese Tripi.taka. In Chapter 48 of the
Vinaya of the Sarvaastivaadins (3) there is a long
passage which deals with the decoration of
monasteries. Anaathapi.n.dika says to Buddha:
'World-honoured one, if images of yours are not
allowed to be made, pray may we not at least make
images of Bodhisattvas(4) in attendance upon you?'
Buddha then grants this permission.



- http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-MEL/waley.htm


Thanks for looking. :smile: I have some knowledge of this information, but have never seen a recommendation to use the Bodhi Tree to represent Buddha. There are many good reasons why the tree would be his recommendation, imo. If you happen to run across it later I'd appreciate seeing it.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Space cadet...

Postby BlackBird » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:35 pm

Furthermore is the oft cited quote from SN 22.87 Vakkali Sutta:
"For a long time, Lord, I have wanted to come and set eyes on the Blessed One, but I had not the strength in this body to come and see the Blessed One."

"Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma."

- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

However, my initial claim that the Buddha suggested the Bodhi tree be his image, or that there were many reasons for this, cannot be supported.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Space cadet...

Postby clw_uk » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:27 am

It just amazes me that people think they can disrespect the triple gem by doing stuff like this but would never - ever - think of doing the same when it comes to imagery of Mohammad or Christ.



Isnt it a compliment? An understanding that we arent going to kick off with death threats or silly protests. Most Buddhists (that ive seen) can take it on the chin and, although not agree, can respect the right to free expression and speech






metta
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan
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Re: Space cadet...

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:33 am

Greetings,

clw_uk wrote:Isnt it a compliment? An understanding that we arent going to kick off with death threats or silly protests.


That's one way to look at it... and that imitation can be considered a form of flattery.

When it comes down to it though... only the creators of such images know whether their intention was wholesome or not.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Space cadet...

Postby Ben » Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:35 am

Hi Paul,

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

clw_uk wrote:Isnt it a compliment? An understanding that we arent going to kick off with death threats or silly protests.


That's one way to look at it... and that imitation can be considered a form of flattery.

When it comes down to it though... only the creators of such images know whether their intention was wholesome or not.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Respectfully, I disagree. I don't think most people would know a wholesome intention or 'thought' if it bit them on the backside.
Metta

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Buddhist Life Stories of Australia
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Re: Space cadet...

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:40 am

Greetings Ben,

Ben wrote:I don't think most people would know a wholesome intention or 'thought' if it bit them on the backside.


Whether they recognise it or not makes little difference to its inherent kammic quality.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Space cadet...

Postby Ben » Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:43 am

Hi Paul
I couldn't agree more!
Shane Warne's a case in point!
Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia
e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
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Re: Space cadet...

Postby nomad » Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:44 am

Wholesome or not. It’s creepy.

~nomad

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Re: Space cadet...

Postby pink_trike » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:17 am

I don't think it's creepy. I think it's just a reminder of the reason we practice...because we all, with no exceptions, have a case of wild mind.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Space cadet...

Postby Sylvester » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:31 am

BlackBird wrote:Furthermore is the oft cited quote from SN 22.87 Vakkali Sutta:
"For a long time, Lord, I have wanted to come and set eyes on the Blessed One, but I had not the strength in this body to come and see the Blessed One."

"Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma."

- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

However, my initial claim that the Buddha suggested the Bodhi tree be his image, or that there were many reasons for this, cannot be supported.



Perhaps you were referring to the Anandabodhi episode recorded in one of the Jatakas? This was planted at Jetavana at the request of Anathapindika, as a "proxy" for the Buddha during his absences from Savatthi.
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Re: Space cadet...

Postby M.Seiffert » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:22 am

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