Islam

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Re: Islam

Postby Senex » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:26 pm

http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/

Some basics if anyone would like to look.
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Re: Islam

Postby clw_uk » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:35 pm

Homosexuality in the Sharia
While there is a consensus that same-sex intercourse is in violation of Islamic law, there are differences of opinion within Islamic scholarship about punishment, reformation, and what standards of proof are required before physical punishment becomes lawful.

In Sunni Islam there are eight madhhabs, or legal schools, of which only four still exist: Hanafi, Shafi'i, Hanbali, Maliki. The main Shia school is called Ja'fari, but there are Zaidi and Ismai'ili also. More recently, some groups have rejected this tradition in favor of greater ijtihad, or individual interpretation. Of these schools, according to Michael Mumisa of the Birmingham-based Al Mahdi institute:

The Hanafi school does not consider same-sex intercourse to constitute adultery, and therefore leaves punishment up to the judge's discretion. Most early scholars of this school specifically ruled out the death penalty, others allow it for a second offence.

Imam Shafi'i considers same-sex intercourse as analogous to other zina; thus, a married person found to have done so is punished as an adulterer (by stoning to death), and an unmarried one, as a fornicator, is left to be flogged.

The Maliki school says that anyone (married or unmarried) found to have committed same-sex intercourse should be punished as an adulterer.
Within the Ja'fari schools, Sayyid al-Khoi says that anyone (married or unmarried) found to have committed same-sex intercourse should be punished as an adulterer.

It should also be noted that the punishment for adultery requires four witnesses; by analogy, all schools, require four witnesses to the physical act of penetration for the punishment to be applied.But if otherwise any other proof is found through modern methods such as DNA testing or so the punishment can be implimented.

According to the modern Islamic scholar Yusuf al-Qaradawi's summary:

"The jurists of Islam have held different opinions concerning the punishment for this abominable practice. Should it be the same as the punishment for zina, or should both the active and passive participants be put to death? While such punishments may seem cruel, they have been suggested to maintain the purity of the Islamic society and to keep it clean of perverted elements."




Fantastic


More liberal movements within these religions often tend to stress logic, reason, and personal experience. This includes scientific findings. It is only since about 1950 that homosexuality has been seriously studied by human sexuality researchers. Liberal individuals and groups within Christianity, Islam and other religions have been quick to incorporate scientific findings within their ethical and religious beliefs. They generally regard homosexuality as a sexual orientation which is ethically neutral, fixed, unchosen, and is normal and natural for a minority of adults.

More conservative movements tend to stress revelation and tradition. Their beliefs are anchored to the past. Their beliefs are much less liable to change rapidly. They generally regard homosexuality as a deviate and disordered behavior, which is immoral, changeable, chosen, abnormal and unnatural.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla.htm


Seems to back my earlier point, those effected by Enlightenment/western values go back and rub out the bits that are now considered to be immoral


On another note Ive actually never heard one Muslim leader say that homosexuality isnt immoral, if anyone does have a reference I would like to see it


metta
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Re: Islam

Postby clw_uk » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:44 pm

Jechbi wrote:A lot? That might be overstating it.

You do, however, see a lot of Christians and Muslims engaging in humanitarian efforts, being good neighbors, helping others, and otherwise using their faith as a basis for loving actions.




Not really that moral if your doing a good action because of fear of punishment/hope for reward or because you think thats what someone else has told you to do. The action might be good but I would argue that the intention isnt because its selfish.



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Re: Islam

Postby clw_uk » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:48 pm

Senex


I am by no means an expert, however I do plan on buying a Koran so I can become more learned on the subject since it is so huge and well... in your face at the moment.



Dont forget to get a copy of the Hadith as well
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Re: Islam

Postby clw_uk » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:07 pm

Friends


Before I get accused of being a bigot or prejudice or racist or whatever (i can tell its coming) I just want to make it clear that I am not. I dont hate muslims and I dont hate the religious in general. To me all humans are equal, the reason that I stress these points above is because such evil views cannot go uncriticised, unmentioned and cannot be hidden away. The evil doctrines that are part of Islam (whatever percentage you want to assign them) need to be condemned otherwise we could end up being condemned by them. I recognise moderate muslims and, although I find religious faith irrational, i have no major problem with them. Hopefully by bringing these things up and challenging them more and more there will be more moderate muslims in the world by making them address these issues in a more critical way (apologies for over use of "more")


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Re: Islam

Postby pink_trike » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:14 pm

Chris wrote:Hello all,

Let's not have broad sweeping statements about Muslims in other countries in past years.
Let's talk about your own experience with Muslims in your community.

I have known Muslim friends whole families.
I have been invited to Muslim wedding celebrations.
I have had many meals in their homes.
I know an Iman - brother of one of my friends, who works tirelessly to institute a school system in Australia along the lines of the Catholic School System, so the young do not have to go overseas for an education and be influenced by those unknown to their parents and local communities.

If you don't have any friendships and long lasting contact with individual Muslims, their families and their local community - well, then ... your opinions gained from the internet or news "reports" means nothing much at all.

metta and karuna,
Chris


I agree. The OP inquired what our thoughts are re: Islam (philosophy and institution) not Muslims.
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Re: Islam

Postby BlackBird » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:17 pm

clw_uk wrote:there will be more moderate muslims in the world by making them address these issues in a more critical way (apologies for over use of "more")


This is really the issue here (not your over use of "more").

The majority of Muslims are moderate. We have a habit in the West (or at least our media does) of giving large amounts of attention to extreme minorities. I'm not saying Terrorism isn't news worthy, more that our whole basis of knowledge (as a society) tends towards what we hear on the news, and what we hear on the news isn't usually a fair representation of how things are.

I would hazard a guess that this arises out of our lust for sensationalism. The song by Tool: 'Vicarious' comes to mind. Same reason why there are so many documentaries about conjoined twins, or really obese/skinny people for that matter. Where there's a demand, there's a supply.

Quite frankly, the demand isn't for quant stories about how Mr. Mohammad and his wife trucked on down to the Mosque last friday for prayer, and then went home with the kids and played scrabble, had dinner, watched TV and went to bed. In the 2 minutes at the end of the news hour typically alotted to little happy stories, it's usually some lady returning a purse she found, or a cat giving birth to a suprisingly large litter of kittens.

Metta
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Re: Islam

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:20 pm

clw_uk wrote:The moderate muslims you see and hear about are overwhelmingly from Western Societies where the Enlightenment took place.

The peaceful ones I know (which is all of them) are from Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Jordan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran, and Iraq. Some are students here. Some are refugees. Some are both.

Mike
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Re: Islam

Postby clw_uk » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:21 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:The moderate muslims you see and hear about are overwhelmingly from Western Societies where the Enlightenment took place.

The peaceful ones I know (I don't know any other sort) are from Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Jordan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Iran, and Iraq. Some are students here. Some are refugees. Some are both.

Mike




Then im afraid we truly live in different worlds


Out of interest, have you asked them what their views on homosexuality and apostates are?
Last edited by clw_uk on Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Islam

Postby Jechbi » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:22 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Jechbi wrote:You do, however, see a lot of Christians and Muslims engaging in humanitarian efforts, being good neighbors, helping others, and otherwise using their faith as a basis for loving actions.

Not really that moral if your doing a good action because of fear of punishment/hope for reward or because you think thats what someone else has told you to do. The action might be good but I would argue that the intention isnt because its selfish.
I think it's an oversimplification to assume that punishment/reward are the only motivating factors behind a religious person's loving acts. I'd be very reluctant to begin attributing intentions to other people, or to begin devaluing their intentions based on one's own interpretations.
clw_uk wrote:
2) Reading source texts is not a thorough way to evaluate a religion, since religions manifest as social phenomena and texts are interepreted very differently. What might appear to you to be the obvious interpretation of a particular text could very well be anathema to a living, breathing Muslim. You see this a lot with anti-Christians pulling out passages of the Bible to show that God is violent and hateful, for example. These texts contain storytelling, tradition, etc., and if you don't understand the context, both historic as well as modern, as well as the discussions and even apologetics associated with the passages in question, then you may not be judging the religion from an objective point of view.


See the problem I have is this. What kind of other meaning could the line "kill apostates" or "kill homosexuals" mean other than what it says. You either have to concede that either said religion is partly man-made, completely man-made or that God is capricious, changing what is moral one moment to immoral the next
Only if you insist on understanding all of these passages in black-and-white terms as absolutist pronouncements from on high. That's what some fundamentalists do, and I agree that it's an inappropriate understanding most of the time. But if you want to hold a religion such as Islam up to scrutiny, you don't do it justice by merely looking at the extreme fundamentalist take (which, I agree, is hard to defend).

clw_uk wrote:Now I would argue that if you claim to be a true believer, then you have to believe that it is the unchangeable word of God ...
Stop right there. This argument you're putting forward would require all religious people to be fundamentalists. I don't think that reflects reality.
clw_uk wrote:
fwiw

Ive always meant to ask, what does this acronym stand for?

"for what it's worth." sometimes not much, but I keep on trying ...
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Re: Islam

Postby clw_uk » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:24 pm

Comrade

Stop right there. This argument you're putting forward would require all religious people to be fundamentalists. I don't think that reflects reality.



I dont think many moderates really do believe wholeheartedly in the doctrines they claim to



For instance I see many moderates crying at funerals, why if you know that they still exist somewhere?


For the really fanatical, i have seen, dont get upset because to them death is an illusion, just a gateway to a better world
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Re: Islam

Postby Individual » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:30 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Let's not have broad sweeping statements about Muslims in other countries in past years.


No lets not make broad statements but lets not simply forget the horrors

Yes, people that tend to be one-sided in discussions like this are generally full of it. You either have some racist right-wing nutjobs saying Islam is evil, it needs to be stopped, all Muslims need to be deported because they're al radicals and terrorists, etc.. Or you have some naive, air-headed liberal hippie who thinks we should just pretend that there are no problems within specific demographics, no cultural problems that need to be addressed, for the sake of promoting tolerance.

It's true the media negatively portrays Muslims because they only reference them when talking about violence or terrorism. But on the other hand, if in this thread we're supposed to just share our own POSITIVE anecdotal evidence of experience with Muslims, how is that really any different?

More about that Persian family I knew, btw: The son of the family, his name was Irfan. I asked him what he thought about the problems in Iran (not the recent election crisis, but just the general religious persecution, the strife between the Muslim theocrats vs. the secular Reformists) and he remarked that Islam was a virus that had infected people's minds. Now, this wasn't some hillbilly who got this opinion from Fox News, but an Iranian American who certainly had a basis upon which to form his opinion. He also wasn't even really a bigot, because at the time (I thought this was a bit funny), despite his radically negative opinion of Islam, his girlfriend at the time was Muslim.

So, I think it's reasonable for anybody here to be critical of Islam, if they seem to know what they're talking about, if they can back up what they say.

clw_uk wrote:Not really, this is a discussion more about Islam and less about Muslims. I would say that unless you have actually read the Koran and Hadith then your opinions wont carry much weight

This is stuff I see a lot on anti-Islam websites... where they'll quote violence in the Qu'ran. Some of it is taken out of context. While it's true the stuff is there, mainstream Muslims don't have the kinds of interpretations that radical Muslims do, when it comes to violent jihad and so on. It's important to remember that "Islamic terrorism" and suicide bombing are modern phenomenon and, before the establishment of Israel, Muslims were relatively peaceful. There have also been many fatwas by high-ranking clerics against such violence, because it often involves Muslim bystanders being killed in the process, and the Qu'ran says that killing even one Muslim is as bad as killing all of mankind.

clw_uk wrote:Muslims that have adopted western values of human rights and freedom are nice, however the problem is in the Ideology itself. The text of the koran is pretty much a plagiarism of the Old and New testament so many of the barbaric "moral" codes and truths are carried over into Islam. Since the books contain poison they will always influence people to act violently, this mixed with the teaching of non-thinking via "Faith" is the central problem

More or less, but I think there's hope because you look at how the actual text of the Bible didn't change, but Jews and Christians today are very peaceful and tolerant towards others' freedom.

clw_uk wrote:I suppose the main question is, as i said earlier, who best represents what Islam was is? The violent theocrats or the more enlightened Muslims?

A good question!

In my opinion, I think we should let the demographics speak for themselves: Let's not overrepresent or underrepresent any group, for the sake of some agenda.
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Re: Islam

Postby BlackBird » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:31 pm

clw_uk wrote:For instance I see many moderates crying at funerals, why if you know that they still exist somewhere?


Attachment? Holding to a doctrine, and attachment to that which one's deceased relations - Apples and oranges.

I would have thought.
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Re: Islam

Postby clw_uk » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:31 pm

But if you want to hold a religion such as Islam up to scrutiny, you don't do it justice by merely looking at the extreme fundamentalist take (which, I agree, is hard to defend).



But they can defent it


I have faith in the koran

the koran says ....

I believe ......



The only way out is to use reason, which is the polar opposite of faith

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Re: Islam

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:36 pm

clw_uk wrote:Then im afraid we truly live in different worlds

Evidently.

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Re: Islam

Postby Jechbi » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:36 pm

clw_uk wrote:I dont think many moderates really do believe wholeheartedly in the doctrines they claim to

That might be true in some cases. In other cases, it may be a case of recognizing the underlying doctrinal truths that are relevant and mandatory. Within a religion as vast as Islam, I'm sure viewpoints will vary.

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Re: Islam

Postby clw_uk » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:56 pm

More about that Persian family I knew, btw: The son of the family, his name was Irfan. I asked him what he thought about the problems in Iran (not the recent election crisis, but just the general religious persecution, the strife between the Muslim theocrats vs. the secular Reformists) and he remarked that Islam was a virus that had infected people's minds. Now, this wasn't some hillbilly who got this opinion from Fox News, but an Iranian American who certainly had a basis upon which to form his opinion. He also wasn't even really a bigot, because at the time (I thought this was a bit funny), despite his radically negative opinion of Islam, his girlfriend at the time was Muslim.

So, I think it's reasonable for anybody here to be critical of Islam, if they seem to know what they're talking about, if they can back up what they say.



There is a good book out called "Infidel" by ayaan hirsi ali

Really good read

clw_uk wrote:
Not really, this is a discussion more about Islam and less about Muslims. I would say that unless you have actually read the Koran and Hadith then your opinions wont carry much weight

Indiv. wrote - This is stuff I see a lot on anti-Islam websites... where they'll quote violence in the Qu'ran. Some of it is taken out of context. While it's true the stuff is there, mainstream Muslims don't have the kinds of interpretations that radical Muslims do, when it comes to violent jihad and so on. It's important to remember that "Islamic terrorism" and suicide bombing are modern phenomenon and, before the establishment of Israel, Muslims were relatively peaceful. There have also been many fatwas by high-ranking clerics against such violence, because it often involves Muslim bystanders being killed in the process, and the Qu'ran says that killing even one Muslim is as bad as killing all of mankind.



How can the killing of homosexuals be in context? By saying that you are basically saying that its is (or was) ok in certain circumstances. On a side note I dont visit those kind of sights I read from the texts and get what I can from Muslims


There have also been many fatwas by high-ranking clerics against such violence, because it often involves Muslim bystanders being killed in the process, and the Qu'ran says that killing even one Muslim is as bad as killing all of mankind


Is this supposed to back a point of muslims being peaceful? Its saying that its wrong to kill fellow muslims, it doesnt say anything about the innocent non-muslims. This is not a moral teaching


metta
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Re: Islam

Postby clw_uk » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:00 pm

The peaceful ones I know (which is all of them) are from Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Jordan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran, and Iraq. Some are students here. Some are refugees. Some are both.

Mike



Out of interest have you asked them what their views on homosexuals and apostates are?
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Re: Islam

Postby Individual » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:55 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:The moderate muslims you see and hear about are overwhelmingly from Western Societies where the Enlightenment took place.

The peaceful ones I know (which is all of them) are from Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Jordan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran, and Iraq. Some are students here. Some are refugees. Some are both.

Mike

When you say "they are from", do you mean they're first or second generation immigrants? And of course they're peaceful. There is a problem of extremism among Muslims, but it's not bad enough that most Muslims openly engage in or even endorse violence. But instead I suggest you examine surveys of Muslim attitudes towards things like America, Jews, womens' rights, secularism, democracy, and so on, and examine things like domestic violence among Muslims... I suggest anybody here, if they know Muslims, ask them directly what they think about womens' rights, such as the practice of forced marriages among Muslims and heavy restrictions on what womens can do and wear. In places like Saudi Arabia, this is not voluntary, because women face ostracization or worse if they don't follow tradition.
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Re: Islam

Postby Individual » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:57 pm

clw_uk wrote:
The peaceful ones I know (which is all of them) are from Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Jordan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran, and Iraq. Some are students here. Some are refugees. Some are both.

Mike



Out of interest have you asked them what their views on homosexuals and apostates are?

Or womens' rights...

Does anyone here think that Hirsi Ali is simply a bigot?

Check out her story:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali
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