How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:06 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:There's nothing wrong with bashing sects. They deserve to be bashed. A sect, by definition, has split off from Buddhism, and promotes an unorthodox teaching. Bash the wrong view, not the person following it.


This is not the only definition, Bhante.
sect (skt)
n.
1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.


"Within a larger group" means "Buddhist". What differentiates a sect is not necessarily adharma, but different methods, rituals, cultural accretions.

Similarly Theravada is a sect or a school, if you prefer.

_/|\_
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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby Dhammabodhi » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:02 pm

A lot of Metta to you, Annabel. :hug:
-Samāhitam cittam yathābhutam pajānāti.

समाहितं चित्तं यथाभूतं पजानाती |

A concentrated mind sees things as they really are.

-Ujuko nāma so maggo, abhayā nāma sā disā.

उजुको नाम सो माग्गो, अभया नाम सा दिसा |

'Straight' is this path, fearlessness is its way.
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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:06 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:There's nothing wrong with bashing sects. They deserve to be bashed. A sect, by definition, has split off from Buddhism, and promotes an unorthodox teaching. Bash the wrong view, not the person following it.

This is not the only definition, Bhante.
sect (skt)
n.
1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.

"Within a larger group" means "Buddhist". What differentiates a sect is not necessarily adharma, but different methods, rituals, cultural accretions.
Similarly Theravada is a sect or a school, if you prefer.
_/|\_


Hi Dan,
I think Bhikkhus deffinition may be apt in this case in regard to what the OP has said regarding SGI being 'excomuncated' from the main school, but it is all a matter of perception, if something is teaching what is not Dhamma, or practicing what s not Dhamma then are they a Buddhist traditin?
obviusly using Dhamma meaning BuddhaDhamma not any of the other Dharmc 'faiths', if it was another religion then the issue wouldn't be relevant because that is deffinately agains the TOS, but discussing buddhist or outside buddhist groups shouldn't be an issue if done correctly i.e. bash the views not the group, but yes this is increadibly hard to do in some cases.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:45 pm

You may be right, Manapa, but I haven't seen any official views of SGI that are clearly adhamma. Not to say that there aren't any, I am just not aware of any. Nor were any listed in the Venerable's post. I'd rather not fling any accusations like that without being very sure.

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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby BlackBird » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:51 pm

Dhammabodhi wrote:A lot of Metta to you, Annabel. :hug:


hear hear
:group:

Metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:55 pm

Greetings Dan,

Nor did venerable Pesala specifically mention SGI, either... I think he was speaking in terms of orthodoxy and unorthodoxy in general, and that the unorthodox should be called out as being unorthodox (or wrong view, from the perspective of the orthodox).

It is very useful to distinguish between the views of different traditions, sects and religions, lest they all be assumed to be pointing to the same thing, and one's perception of Buddhism become a sludge-bucket of conflicting information as a result.

As the recent topic on the Hey Hey It's Saturday 'blackfacing' skit showed, when people assume others share the same frame of reference, there are bound to be issues of miscommunication. A non-Buddhist for example might see that the OP and his partner are both Buddhist and therefore assume commonality of religious belief, whereas this is certainly not the case.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:58 pm

Dan74 wrote:You may be right, Manapa, but I haven't seen any official views of SGI that are clearly adhamma. Not to say that there aren't any, I am just not aware of any. Nor were any listed in the Venerable's post. I'd rather not fling any accusations like that without being very sure.

_/|\_


Dan was I beingspecific to SGI in the whole of that post???
the one person who does know, rightly is cautious about expressing his thoughts, and no accusations are being thrown around.
view are that views and can be discused.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:08 am

Please educate yourselves about what Nichiren Buddhism teaches then decide whether it qualifies as a sect or just another school of Buddhism.

Nichiren Buddhism
He (Nichiren) eventually concluded that the highest teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha (563?–483?BC) were to be found in the Lotus Sutra. The mantra he expounded on 28 April 1253, Nam-Myōhō-Renge-Kyō, expresses his devotion to that body of teachings. During his lifetime Nichiren stridently maintained that the contemporary teachings of Buddhism taught by other sects (particularly Shin, Zen, Shingon, and Ritsu[1]) were mistaken in their interpretations of the correct path to enlightenment and therefore refuted them publicly and vociferously.


The Lotus Sutra

The Lotus Sutra purports to be a discourse delivered by the Buddha toward the end of his life (although, confusingly, he reveals in the discourse that he would remain for eons yet to come). The tradition in Mahayana states that the sutra was written down at the time of the Buddha and stored for five hundred years in a realm of dragons (or Nagas). After this, they were said to have been reintroduced into the human realm at the time of the Fourth Buddhist Council in Kashmir. This tradition further claims that the sutra's teachings are of a higher order than those contained in the agamas and the Sutta Pitaka (the sutra itself also claims this). It maintains that humankind had been unable to understand the sutra at the time of the Buddha (500 BCE), and hence the teaching had to be held back.

Nichiren Buddhism is not Dhamma (adhamma).
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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:17 am

Greetings bhante,

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Nichiren Buddhism is not Dhamma (adhamma).


Where do you draw the line between Dhamma and Adhamma?

Is it a matter of what was taught by the Buddha? Is it what was recited at the 1st Buddhist Council? The 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th? etc. Is it that which is in accord with the suttas?

The reason I ask is because we may reject the Lotus Sutra as an apocraphic forgery, but Theravada itself has its fair share of "thought" (loosely termed) which doubtlessly arose after the Buddha's parinibbana too.

Modern scholarship generally considers the Abhidhamma Pitaka to be a post-Buddha development, yet many Theravadins take its teaching as being "of a higher order than those contained in the agamas and the Sutta Pitaka". Assuming for the sake of argument that this scholarship is correct, is that elevation of the Abhidhamma fundamentally any different to what Nichiren has done with the elevation of the Lotus Sutra?

Any thoughts you can provide on where you feel the line should be drawn, and by what criteria, would be greatly appreciated.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby Dan74 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:23 am

I think the origins of the Lotus Sutra and its claims of being a superior teaching does not mean that what it teaches is adhamma.

It is possible that claims of being expounded by the the historical Buddha were added later to many Mahayana scriptures, in order to elevate or legitimise the teachings of a particular lineage (actually the understanding in Mahayana is generally that it was not the historical Buddha but rather the "Buddha-principle" that manifests in enlightened individuals). Pamphlets written by outstanding monks and visionaries were common in early Buddhism and some of these eventually made it into the Mahayana canon. I recall it is written that what is well-spoken, what leads to emancipation and nibbana, that is Dhamma, that is the words of the Buddha. This is from the Agamas. So one should not rush to dismiss these scriptures on the basis of them being "forgeries." This would be simply wrong as Retro also showed with his Abhidhamma example.

As for claims of superiority, these may have been added later as well. But I guess they serve a very practical purpose. Especially with the Lotus Sutra, faith in it is crucial to its effectiveness as a teaching device.

As for Nichiren railing and ranting against other schools, well, he certainly did that! Maybe there was some point to it at his time? I am not sure. He certainly had a hard time of it.

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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:27 am

BlackBird wrote:
Dhammabodhi wrote:A lot of Metta to you, Annabel. :hug:


hear hear
:group:

Metta
Jack


You hear what? :shock:
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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby Dan74 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:30 am

Annabel wrote:
BlackBird wrote:
Dhammabodhi wrote:A lot of Metta to you, Annabel. :hug:


hear hear
:group:

Metta
Jack


You hear what? :shock:


"hear hear" generally indicates approval. I think Blackbird was supporting what Dhammabodhis was saying to you, Annabel.

_/|\_
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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:33 am

retrofuturist wrote:when people assume others share the same frame of reference, there are bound to be issues of miscommunication. A non-Buddhist for example might see that the OP and his partner are both Buddhist and therefore assume commonality of religious belief, whereas this is certainly not the case.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Oh... :?

I'm not that well informed on the group is partner belongs to then....can anybody give me a quick update please?

Ty

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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:39 am

Dan74 wrote:"hear hear" generally indicates approval.

Sadhu, Sadhu. Unfortunately in these modern times it is sometimes corrupted to "here, here"... :juggling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear,_hear

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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby pink_trike » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:45 am

I'm always amused by these endless parsing discussions of "what is and isn't dhamma"....as if Buddhism somehow emerged from some vacuum itself, completely new and separate from the long stream of information that was carefully preserved for thousands of years prior to it...while much older indian and persian influences are clearly evident in.

Scholars have recently concluded without a doubt that significant portions of Christian mythology is lifted nearly verbatim from Egyptian texts that predate Christianity by a thousand years. This is the pattern of all oral and then written traditions...to imagine that Buddhism is somehow cleanly exempt from this pattern is folly. Our information age is dismantling all these outdated notions of cultural separateness.

Later stories put themselves under the umbrella of Buddhism, just as Buddhism absorbed stories from previous information streams. No clean lines exist except in our desire for them to exist, and sorting out the threads is a fool's game. Essence, not form...that's all there is to parse and absorb. That's the times we live in.
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:47 am

Dan74 wrote:
You hear what? :shock:


"hear hear" generally indicates approval. I think Blackbird was supporting what Dhammabodhis was saying to you, Annabel.

_/|\_


Oh, thanks.

("Hear hear" from the verb to hear, would express, in my language, doubt or astonishment, a little bit ironic, hence my surprise.... :reading: )


Thank you Blackbird, Dhammabodhi...!

Your compassion feels good.

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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:Where do you draw the line between Dhamma and Adhamma?


See The Four Great References

Another method:

The Buddha's Brief Discourse to Gotamī or in a similar vein The Eight Thoughts of a Great Man
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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:45 am

Thank you bhante.

:anjali:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby Individual » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:57 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:There's nothing wrong with bashing sects. They deserve to be bashed. A sect, by definition, has split off from Buddhism, and promotes an unorthodox teaching. Bash the wrong view, not the person following it.

I think I agree with you, Bhikkhu, but the word "bash" is too harsh. A person bashes what they hate or are afraid of. I think a person should speak the truth, but only if it's likely that the other person will hear it.
.
An example of this sort of thing is SN 44.10

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Whereas the Buddha would blatantly tell some people that there is no self, specifically that no self can be found among the five aggregates -- he did not tell Vacchagotta such a thing because he would be bewildered by hearing such a thing

If a person is only bewildered when they are told, "Your religion contains several deluded views," if it leaves them bewildered, then what's the point? Where is the compassion?
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Re: How do I tell my friend I don't like her kind of Buddhism?

Postby PeterB » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:14 am

To return to the OP, I strongly suspect that ( as another poster has hinted ) this particular issue will resolve itself.One way or another. Sometimes consciously adopting an unresolvable difference is our way of finding resolution to problems that have different and other roots. Sometimes one person in a relationship is subconsciously looking for deal breaker.
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