Global Warming & Climate Change and Ecological Buddhism

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Re: Ecological Buddhism

Postby poto » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:15 am

Ben wrote:Thanks Aloka
I would like to encourage all members, if they have the volition, to sign the Buddhist declaration on Climate Change which will be presented at the Copenahagen Climate Change talks.

We are happy to announce the United Nations Environmental Programme (UNEP) will present the Declaration and signatories to world leaders at the Copenhagen Climate Conference, December 7-18th. You may be interested to look at the analysis of signatories by country and affiliation. Others can still sign the Declaration.
http://www.ecobuddhism.org continues to attract visitors from across the world—over 1.25 million in the last 12 months. You will find informed new articles and updates in the lead-up to COP-15…and beyond. We will continue to examine the challenge and opportunity of the climate crisis, in the light of integral, contemplative activism.

http://www.ecobuddhism.org/


Kind regards

Ben


I have read that petition before, and I believe it is wrong, politically motivated and lacking of facts. As a Buddhist, I do not believe it is wise to endorse such a thing.

Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of environmental protections. I would just like to see scientifically sound measures put into place, not political agendas of limiting CO2 to some arbitrary level and taxing it.

Also, I'd like to point out that crop yields have increased a good bit since CO2 has risen from 350ppm to present levels. Anyone in favor of reducing CO2 to 350ppm is advocating reduced crop yields and the murder of countless beings via starvation.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Ecological Buddhism

Postby Ben » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:10 am

Thank you poto.
Could you kindly provide references that support your point of view?
thanks

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Heraclitus


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Re: Ecological Buddhism

Postby poto » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:52 am

Ben wrote:Thank you poto.
Could you kindly provide references that support your point of view?
thanks

Ben


As for CO2, you can read a bit here:
http://ilovecarbondioxide.com/2009/01/c ... facts.html

Also, I posted a number of things in the global warming thread:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2542

I realize I'm not the best at explaining these things, but if there's anything specific you'd like me to run down some data on, I'll do the best I can to find it for you. Just let me know.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Ecological Buddhism

Postby Ben » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:06 am

Thanks poto but I was after something a bit more objective. Perhaps articles published in peer-reviewed academic literature. I don't consider 'ilovecarbondioxide.com' to be either objective or reliable.
kind regards

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: Ecological Buddhism

Postby poto » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:19 am

Ben wrote:Thanks poto but I was after something a bit more objective. Perhaps articles published in peer-reviewed academic literature. I don't consider 'ilovecarbondioxide.com' to be either objective or reliable.
kind regards

Ben


Fair enough. Is 450 peer-reviewed papers enough?
http://www.populartechnology.net/2009/1 ... rting.html
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby poto » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:48 am

The UK's leading Climate Research Unit was hacked.

Message from the hackers:
We feel that climate science is, in the current situation, too important to
be kept under wraps.

We hereby release a random selection of correspondence, code, and documents

More on this story:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/19/b ... -released/

So far the hackers have released 61MB of data, including e-mails.

I managed to find and download a copy and have been looking through it. Looks to me like the "scientists" at CRU have been cooking the books for a long time. These files will be getting into the hands of journalists soon. If the media isn't totally corrupt, this should be major news in the coming days. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if there were attempts to sweep this under the rug, seeing as how much political interest there is in this issue.

Also, it's nice to see hackers do something good for a change. And if anybody wants a copy of the files, let me know and I'll be happy to get it to you. I won't post it publicly though because some of the e-mails contain personal data.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:21 am

gavesako wrote:See these Sutta quotes for a Buddhist perspective on "climate change":

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2009/07 ... l-conceit/

Excellent. Thank you.


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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:26 pm

poto wrote:The UK's leading Climate Research Unit was hacked.

Message from the hackers:
We feel that climate science is, in the current situation, too important to
be kept under wraps.

We hereby release a random selection of correspondence, code, and documents

More on this story:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/19/b ... -released/

So far the hackers have released 61MB of data, including e-mails.

I managed to find and download a copy and have been looking through it. Looks to me like the "scientists" at CRU have been cooking the books for a long time. These files will be getting into the hands of journalists soon. If the media isn't totally corrupt, this should be major news in the coming days. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if there were attempts to sweep this under the rug, seeing as how much political interest there is in this issue.

Also, it's nice to see hackers do something good for a change. And if anybody wants a copy of the files, let me know and I'll be happy to get it to you. I won't post it publicly though because some of the e-mails contain personal data.



No, thanks, and you, as a Buddhist, shouldn't make your hands dirty with stolen material!

To hack a site and steal information and spread it equals burglary, theft and handling of stolen goods, plus violating the privacy data protection laws!

This is a criminal offense and should not be welcome.

It's breaking the precepts too.

Don't take anything that wasn't given, and don't pass it on....you accumulate bad karma here!

Please don't. Mara is tempting you. :hug:
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby poto » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:54 pm

Annabel wrote:
poto wrote:The UK's leading Climate Research Unit was hacked.

Message from the hackers:
We feel that climate science is, in the current situation, too important to
be kept under wraps.

We hereby release a random selection of correspondence, code, and documents

More on this story:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/19/b ... -released/

So far the hackers have released 61MB of data, including e-mails.

I managed to find and download a copy and have been looking through it. Looks to me like the "scientists" at CRU have been cooking the books for a long time. These files will be getting into the hands of journalists soon. If the media isn't totally corrupt, this should be major news in the coming days. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if there were attempts to sweep this under the rug, seeing as how much political interest there is in this issue.

Also, it's nice to see hackers do something good for a change. And if anybody wants a copy of the files, let me know and I'll be happy to get it to you. I won't post it publicly though because some of the e-mails contain personal data.



No, thanks, and you, as a Buddhist, shouldn't make your hands dirty with stolen material!

To hack a site and steal information and spread it equals burglary, theft and handling of stolen goods, plus violating the privacy data protection laws!

This is a criminal offense and should not be welcome.

It's breaking the precepts too.

Don't take anything that wasn't given, and don't pass it on....you accumulate bad karma here!

Please don't. Mara is tempting you. :hug:


The data in question should have been made public long ago. In fact, according to the laws in the UK, it is supposed to be PUBLIC DOMAIN. However, the people running CRU have been willfully evading all attempts to release the information via the UK's freedom of information act. There is even discussion in their e-mails about how they are thwarting their nation's laws and refusing to release this data.

They were committing a criminal act by withholding the data in the first place. Not to mention the other fraud and deceit they were engaged in. Do you honestly think it's a proper Buddhist thing to allow charlatans and con-artists to run free and unencumbered? Sit on your hands if you want, this data should be known and will be known. These hackers have done a great justice!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby poto » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:36 am

Annabel,

I would also like to point out intent. The intent of the hackers was not to steal for personal gain or profit, but to liberate data and expose fraud for the good of all. Considering that, I do not see any bad karma accruing from this.

One of the comments I've seen elsewhere on this matter is this:

What we have here is evidence that the team (CRU) has engaged in:

1. Conspiracy
2. Government Fraud
3. Computer Fraud
4. Obstruction of Justice
5. Environmental Law Violations (Falsifying lab data pertaining to environmental regulations)
6. Suppression of evidence
7. Tampering with evidence
8. Public Corruption
9. Bribery


In light of that, these hackers are to be considered whistle-blowers. And I think they should be congratulated for bringing these crimes to light. Now I can only hope that the mainstream media picks up this story and these people are brought to justice.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby Lampang » Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:59 am

There's a post on realclimate about this at http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... #more-1853

"More interesting is what is not contained in the emails. There is no evidence of any worldwide conspiracy, no mention of George Soros nefariously funding climate research, no grand plan to ‘get rid of the MWP’, no admission that global warming is a hoax, no evidence of the falsifying of data, and no ‘marching orders’ from our socialist/communist/vegetarian overlords. The truly paranoid will put this down to the hackers also being in on the plot though....

Instead, there is a peek into how scientists actually interact and the conflicts show that the community is a far cry from the monolith that is sometimes imagined. People working constructively to improve joint publications; scientists who are friendly and agree on many of the big picture issues, disagreeing at times about details and engaging in ‘robust’ discussions; Scientists expressing frustration at the misrepresentation of their work in politicized arenas and complaining when media reports get it wrong; Scientists resenting the time they have to take out of their research to deal with over-hyped nonsense. None of this should be shocking.

It’s obvious that the noise-generating components of the blogosphere will generate a lot of noise about this. but it’s important to remember that science doesn’t work because people are polite at all times. Gravity isn’t a useful theory because Newton was a nice person. QED isn’t powerful because Feynman was respectful of other people around him. Science works because different groups go about trying to find the best approximations of the truth, and are generally very competitive about that. That the same scientists can still all agree on the wording of an IPCC chapter for instance is thus even more remarkable.

No doubt, instances of cherry-picked and poorly-worded “gotcha” phrases will be pulled out of context. One example is worth mentioning quickly. Phil Jones in discussing the presentation of temperature reconstructions stated that “I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.” The paper in question is the Mann, Bradley and Hughes (1998) Nature paper on the original multiproxy temperature reconstruction, and the ‘trick’ is just to plot the instrumental records along with reconstruction so that the context of the recent warming is clear. Scientists often use the term “trick” to refer to a “a good way to deal with a problem”, rather than something that is “secret”, and so there is nothing problematic in this at all. As for the ‘decline’, it is well known that Keith Briffa’s maximum latewood tree ring density proxy diverges from the temperature records after 1960 (this is more commonly known as the “divergence problem”–see e.g. the recent discussion in this paper) and has been discussed in the literature since Briffa et al in Nature in 1998 (Nature, 391, 678-682). Those authors have always recommend not using the post 1960 part of their reconstruction, and so while ‘hiding’ is probably a poor choice of words (since it is ‘hidden’ in plain sight), not using the data in the plot is completely appropriate, as is further research to understand why this happens.

The timing of this particular episode is probably not coincidental. But if cherry-picked out-of-context phrases from stolen personal emails is the only response to the weight of the scientific evidence for the human influence on climate change, then there probably isn’t much to it."

Right-wing anti-science denialists will no doubt get their pants in a twist about this and whilst it's possible that the behaviour of those working at the CRU might have been less than exemplary, the idea that this somehow proves the ludicrous fantasies of the flat-earthers is preposterous.
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby poto » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:39 am

Lampang,

Interesting that you should mention RealClimate.org. Those e-mails do shed a lot of light on things, for instance.

From Michael E. Mann:
Anyway, I wanted you guys to know that you’re free to use RC [RealClimate.org - A supposed neutral climate change website] Rein any way you think would be helpful. Gavin and I are going to be careful about what comments we screen through, and we’ll be very careful to answer any questions that come up to any extent we can. On the other hand, you might want to visit the thread and post replies yourself. We can hold comments up in the queue and contact you about whether or not you think they should be screened through or not, and if so, any comments you’d like us to include.



I've long thought that RealClimate.org was a biased mouthpiece of propaganda, and it seems that was what it was intended to be when it was created.

Read the e-mails and look over the data yourself. The truth is right there for you to see yourself. All you have to do is open your eyes. Seriously, there are dozens of e-mails which show their corruption.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:01 am

poto wrote:
The data in question should have been made public long ago. In fact, according to the laws in the UK, it is supposed to be PUBLIC DOMAIN. However, the people running CRU have been willfully evading all attempts to release the information via the UK's freedom of information act. There is even discussion in their e-mails about how they are thwarting their nation's laws and refusing to release this data.

They were committing a criminal act by withholding the data in the first place. Not to mention the other fraud and deceit they were engaged in. Do you honestly think it's a proper Buddhist thing to allow charlatans and con-artists to run free and unencumbered? Sit on your hands if you want, this data should be known and will be known. These hackers have done a great justice!


Poto, I understand your concern, but if others do wrong, it is no reason nor excuse for us to
lower ourselves to their level.

We must stay blameless, or we lose all higher moral ground.

If there is reason to assume a criminal offense, legal means must be applied to obtain material, or it isn't even eligible in court.
Do you honestly think it's a proper Buddhist thing to allow charlatans and con-artists to run free and unencumbered?


Again, it must be done with legal means.

Sit on your hands if you want, this data should be known and will be known.


Don't worry about my hands, worry about your own, and you can disregard all I said.... :buddha1:
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby poto » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:30 am

Annabel wrote:
poto wrote:
The data in question should have been made public long ago. In fact, according to the laws in the UK, it is supposed to be PUBLIC DOMAIN. However, the people running CRU have been willfully evading all attempts to release the information via the UK's freedom of information act. There is even discussion in their e-mails about how they are thwarting their nation's laws and refusing to release this data.

They were committing a criminal act by withholding the data in the first place. Not to mention the other fraud and deceit they were engaged in. Do you honestly think it's a proper Buddhist thing to allow charlatans and con-artists to run free and unencumbered? Sit on your hands if you want, this data should be known and will be known. These hackers have done a great justice!


Poto, I understand your concern, but if others do wrong, it is no reason nor excuse for us to
lower ourselves to their level.

We must stay blameless, or we lose all higher moral ground.

If there is reason to assume a criminal offense, legal means must be applied to obtain material, or it isn't even eligible in court.
Do you honestly think it's a proper Buddhist thing to allow charlatans and con-artists to run free and unencumbered?


Again, it must be done with legal means.

Sit on your hands if you want, this data should be known and will be known.


Don't worry about my hands, worry about your own, and you can disregard all I said.... :buddha1:


Sorry, I can't share your sense of moral superiority. I'd rather know the truth, even if it means you think I'm taking a lower road.

Now that it has been released and journalists are starting to get their hands on the data, it opens the way for an official inquiry. During an official investigation all of the same records and data can be obtained through legal channels for the courts. The leaked data would then have served it's purpose in exposing the fraud and getting the attention of the proper authorities without tainting the investigation. As I said, all of these records are supposed to be public domain anyways, and all of the research funded with public money, so the government, when made aware should have no problem obtaining a copy from CRU themselves. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see any problem there.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:59 am

poto wrote:
Annabel wrote:
poto wrote:
The data in question should have been made public long ago. In fact, according to the laws in the UK, it is supposed to be PUBLIC DOMAIN. However, the people running CRU have been willfully evading all attempts to release the information via the UK's freedom of information act. There is even discussion in their e-mails about how they are thwarting their nation's laws and refusing to release this data.

They were committing a criminal act by withholding the data in the first place. Not to mention the other fraud and deceit they were engaged in. Do you honestly think it's a proper Buddhist thing to allow charlatans and con-artists to run free and unencumbered? Sit on your hands if you want, this data should be known and will be known. These hackers have done a great justice!


Poto, I understand your concern, but if others do wrong, it is no reason nor excuse for us to
lower ourselves to their level.

We must stay blameless, or we lose all higher moral ground.

If there is reason to assume a criminal offense, legal means must be applied to obtain material, or it isn't even eligible in court.
Do you honestly think it's a proper Buddhist thing to allow charlatans and con-artists to run free and unencumbered?


Again, it must be done with legal means.

Sit on your hands if you want, this data should be known and will be known.


Don't worry about my hands, worry about your own, and you can disregard all I said.... :buddha1:


Sorry, I can't share your sense of moral superiority. I'd rather know the truth, even if it means you think I'm taking a lower road.

Now that it has been released and journalists are starting to get their hands on the data, it opens the way for an official inquiry. During an official investigation all of the same records and data can be obtained through legal channels for the courts. The leaked data would then have served it's purpose in exposing the fraud and getting the attention of the proper authorities without tainting the investigation. As I said, all of these records are supposed to be public domain anyways, and all of the research funded with public money, so the government, when made aware should have no problem obtaining a copy from CRU themselves. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see any problem there.


I don't have a "sense of moral superiority",- I shared what the Buddha taught. If you feel he taught moral superiority, I agree.

I plan on saying something to legal procedures later.
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby poto » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:54 am

Annabel wrote:I don't have a "sense of moral superiority",- I shared what the Buddha taught. If you feel he taught moral superiority, I agree.

I plan on saying something to legal procedures later.


You shared your interpretation as you thought it applied to one aspect of a situation. I did not agree, as I pointed out intent, which you ignored.

Also, I'd like to mention that the more I look at this, the more I'm thinking this was a leak from somebody on the inside. Perhaps somebody who felt guilty about it. If you look at the "hacker's statement" it's in perfect English, and worded very much like something a government employee would write. I didn't give it much thought at first, but I have never before seen a hacker make an official statement that well written. Most of the statements I've seen are machine translated or are in broken English. The files were first uploaded to a Russian FTP, which might have just been cover for whoever leaked this.

Whatever you think, the fact is these files are out there and there's no going back. This data is already all over the web and will not be going away.

BTW, The mouse and the GUI (graphic user interface) were both stolen from Xerox by Apple and Microsoft. So I guess by your logic you shouldn't be using a computer either, unless maybe it's running linux and you don't use a mouse.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:25 pm

You shared your interpretation as you thought it applied to one aspect of a situation. I did not agree, as I pointed out intent, which you ignored.


I didn't ignore it. I'm just very busy, and not able to comment on everything right away, especially when I want to think about it in peace.

Either way, I will try to explain it to you with an example.

If I have a justified suspicion that my neighbor is committing crimes in his cellar, and I break into the cellar, and obtain evidence of his crimes, like his videos and emails, and then go to the police with it, then I become guilty of unlawful entry, burglary and theft. All that out of good intentions.

Had I shared my suspicion with the authorities, pressed charges, and they had obtained a search warrant, it would be a legal entry and search.

The result of illegal searches can be/is, that material cannot be used before a court and jury.

The proper way is to press charges against a person, and then the police has to act.

That is what I would recommend. So far you have stated that you think it is ok to hack somebody, and then use whatever you found and spread it to third parties, if it is an evil person/community you did it to, and you're saving the world from more evil.

Right?

But our laws don't work that way, nor does kamma.
If you abuse somebody evil, you are still abusing. That is what I meant with lowering oneself to the level where you hit back.

I don't think Buddhists should do that.

May I remind you that e sangha also got hacked.

Did you approve? If not, why ?

And how would you feel if somebody hacked your computer, and spread your emails?

If you wouldn't like this to happen to you...

Good intentions are fine and well, but they also need to be dealt with in a proper, legal way.
Hacking is not.

In short,

Get your guy, but with proper means.

That is police training 101.

Can you agree?
Last edited by Annapurna on Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:32 pm

Greetings,

Shall we pause for a few deep breaths?

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby poto » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:58 pm

Annabel wrote:
You shared your interpretation as you thought it applied to one aspect of a situation. I did not agree, as I pointed out intent, which you ignored.


I didn't ignore it. I'm just very busy, and not able to comment on everything right away, especially when I want to think about it in peace.

Either way, I will try to explain it to you with an example.

If I have a justified suspicion that my neighbor is committing crimes in his cellar, and I break into the cellar, and obtain evidence of his crimes, like his videos and emails, and then go to the police with it, then I become guilty of unlawful entry, burglary and theft. Allk that out of good itetnions.

Had I shared my suspicion with the authorities, pressed charges, and they had obtained a search warrant, it would be a legal entry and search.

The result of illegal searches can be/is, that material cannot be used before a court and jury.

The proper way is to press charges against a person, and then the police has to act.

That is what I would recommend. So far you have stated that you think it is ok, to hack somebody, and then use whatever you found and spread it to third parties, becuase it was an evil person/community you did it to, and you're saving the world from more evil.

Right?

But our laws don't work that way.

May I remind you that e sangha also got hacked.

Did you approve? If not, why ?

And how would you feel if somebody hacked your computer, and spread your emails?

If you wouldn't like this to happen to you, then I wonder why you feel others should be hacked.

Good intentions are fine and well, but they also need to be dealt with in a proper, legal way.
Hacking is not.

In short,

Get your guy, but with proper means.

That is police training 101.

Can you agree?


You seem to make a lot of assumptions about me.

Firstly, I run a number of websites. I've been hacked numerous times. I know exactly how it feels to get hacked.

However, I also realize there is a difference between a destructive hack, and a constructive one. Constructive hacks liberate information that should be free, and highlight security vulnerabilities that need to be fixed. Some hackers are actually polite enough to contact admins like myself and let them know about security holes without destroying anything. Then there's the destructive hackers. Those are usually either professional thieves that do malware installs for profit and ransom data or punk kids that get off on defacing websites. The later are criminals, the former are heroes.

CRU's data was not destroyed, there was no defacement. All that happened was that data was liberated, data that belonged to the public. There are some of us that believe that information should be free, especially information that concerns the public welfare and which public policy is being based on.

I really don't like arguing. I feel it's not a constructive use of my time, especially when nobody listens. I'm not good at arguing, and I don't feel I'm able to express myself fully or properly. I usually get along better with machines and computers than I do with people. I really don't want to argue with you or anyone else. I'm just trying to present information that I feel is right. Maybe it's wrong for me to voice my views on these matters, maybe I should just leave you all alone and do nothing except work and meditate... I dunno. I just feel like I've not been productive and that this arguing itself may end up doing more harm than good. Annabel, I never enjoyed arguing with you on E-Sangha either.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:23 pm

:( I'm sorry, Poto. I wasn't aware of that. Please know that when I am disagreeing with you, I'm still far from arguing with you. I don't enjoy arguments either, but discussions, anytime. Please don't take it personally either when I disagree. It doesn't mean I reject you as a person or think lowly of you. Not at all.

I can hardly remember you from e sangha. :shock: (My memory is hopelessly overloaded)

maybe I should just leave you all alone and do nothing except work and meditate...


Oh, no, please stay. Perhaps I was wrong? You provided some very good explanations here, that I really benefitted from and that would be greatly missed by me and others. :hug:

I'm sorry to have caused you negative feelings.*sigh*

Now I feel like withdrawing behind my books... :spy:
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
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