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Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:22 am

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: No comment

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:28 am

Greetings,

Not much different to blaming this event on kamma, if you ask me.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: No comment

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Not much different to blaming this event on kamma, if you ask me.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Yeah. According to Robertson 9/11 was the result of abortion, paganism and others such "unchristian" activities in America. Katrina was the result of gays in New Orleans. Interestingly enough, however, the charitable organization associated with this bozo has gone to Hatai to help.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: No comment

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:45 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Not much different to blaming this event on kamma, if you ask me.


Which no Buddhist should do. I hope no Buddhists are saying kamma. First, we shouldn't speculate on another's kamma and second, the Buddha clearly said that not every cause is kamma. Third, the Buddha stated that earthquakes have natural causes:

This great earth is supported by water which is supported by air which is in turn supported by space. When a great wind blows, this stirs up the water and because of the stirring-up of the water the earth quakes” (D.II,107).

Although the Buddha was mistaken in this matter, he was clearly attempting to give a naturalistic explanation for the phenomena.
(Ven. Dhammika blog Jan. 14, 2010)
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Re: No comment

Postby Ben » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:35 pm

An appropriate response from the guy from Countdown.
kind regards

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Re: No comment

Postby dspiewak » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:14 pm

I've seen this story passed around a lot over the last 24 hours, and heard a lot of moral outrage released over it. We had a discussion about this last night with my fellow lay practitioners. I really didn't want to take part in the discussion, because for many people stories like this are an occasion to vent about the deficits they find in certain forms of Christianity, and to almost intentionally inspire anger in themselves so they can gleefully direct it at a socially acceptable target.

I wouldn't subject myself to one of his broadcasts, but I keep Pat Robertson especially in mind during metta meditation. He's the one who has to wake up as Pat Robertson every day, and I don't envy that. I hope that doesn't sound too much like "love the sinner, hate the sin, I rebuke you but I'll pray for you, etc." but that's honestly how I feel about it. I have become very wary of "righteous anger" since I have been old enough to detect it.
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Re: No comment

Postby cooran » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:53 pm

Hello dsiewak, all,

Yep. But māna is a fetter a well.

māna
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/maana.htm

metta
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Re: No comment

Postby Bozworth » Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:01 am

I blame plate tectonics.
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Re: No comment

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:06 pm

With respect to Venerable, if the Buddha was speaking of Earth, Liquid and Wind in terms of dhatus or elements, was he really mistaken? This is how I understood his explanation.

J
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Re: No comment

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:44 am

Of the five causal laws (niyama), the law of climate (utu niyama) explains why earthquakes and other such natural events (landslides, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc.) happen. It does not explain why some living beings suffer a premature death while others do not. That is due to the law of kamma.

Culakammavibhanga Sutta

The Blessed One said: "There is the case, student, where a woman or man is a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell. If, on the break-up of the body, after death — instead of reappearing in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell — he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is short-lived wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a short life: to be a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings.
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Re: No comment

Postby Bozworth » Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:48 am

The following parable from Ajahn Brahm's "Truckload of Dung" book sprung to mind:


A simple forest monk was meditating alone in the jungle in a hut made of thatch. Late one evening, there was a very violent monsoon storm. The wind roared like jet aircraft and heavy rain thrashed against his hut. As the night grew denser, the storm grew more savage. First, branches could be heard being ripped off the trees. Then whole trees were uprooted by the force of the gale and came crashing to the ground with a sound as loud as thunder.

The monk soon realized that his grass hut was no protection. If a tree fell on top of his hut, or even a big branch, it would break clean through the grass roof and crush him to death. He didn't sleep the whole night. Often during that night, he would hear huge forest giants smash their way to the ground and his heart would pound for a while.

In the hours before dawn, as so often happens, the storm disappeared. At first light, the monk ventured outside his grass hut to inspect the damage. Many big branches, as well as two sizeable trees, had just missed his hut. He felt lucky to have survived. What suddenly took his attention, though, was not the many uprooted trees and fallen branches scattered on the ground, but the many leaves that now lay spread thickly on the forest floor.

As he expected, most of the leaves lying dead on the ground were old brown leaves, which had lived a full life. Among the brown leaves were many yellow leaves. There were even several green leaves. And some of those green leaves were of such a fresh and rich green color that he knew they could have only unfurled from the bud a few hours before. In that moment, the monk's heart understood the nature of death.

He wanted to test the truth of his insight so he gazed up to the branches of the trees. Sure enough, most of the leaves still left on the trees were young healthy green ones, in the prime of their life. Yet, although many newborn green leaves lay dead on the ground, old bent and curled up brown leaves still clung on to the branches. The monk smiled; from that day on, the death of a child would never disconcert him.

When the storms of death blow through our families, they usually take the old ones, the "mottled brown leaves." They also take many middle-aged ones, like the yellow leaves of a tree. Young people die too, in the prime of their life, similar to the green leaves. And sometimes death rips from dear life a small number of young children, just as nature's storms rip off a small number of young shoots. This is the essential nature of death in our communities, as it is the essential nature of storms in a forest.
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Re: No comment

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:32 am

Greetings bhante,

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Of the five causal laws (niyama), the law of climate (utu niyama) explains why earthquakes and other such natural events (landslides, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc.) happen. It does not explain why some living beings suffer a premature death while others do not. That is due to the law of kamma.

Culakammavibhanga Sutta

The Blessed One said: "There is the case, student, where a woman or man is a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell. If, on the break-up of the body, after death — instead of reappearing in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell — he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is short-lived wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a short life: to be a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings.


If A causes B, it does not logically mean that A is the only possible cause for B.

For example - over-eating can give you a belly-ache, but if you have a belly-ache it doesn't necessarily mean you over-ate (e.g. you may have food poisoning, gastro, constipation, or have eaten exotic or rich foods to which you're not conditioned).

To attribute all premature death to kamma is to commit the same logical fallacy as to say that over-eating is the only cause of a belly-ache.

Yes, "there is the case" as the Buddha says, but that's not the only possible case, or sequence of events, which could lead to the same result.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: No comment

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:08 am

HI retro,
retrofuturist wrote:To attribute all premature death to kamma is to commit the same logical fallacy as to say that over-eating is the only cause of a belly-ache.

I believe you are over interpreting what Bhante is saying...

I still get the feeling that your view is that no bad stuff that we experience is the result of kamma. Those premature deaths still involve physical things, which, it seems to me could include being involved in some natural disaster.

I would really welcome some discussion of this point, since I may be misinterpreting retro, the Suttas, or both...

Metta
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Re: No comment

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:16 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:I still get the feeling that your view is that no bad stuff that we experience is the result of kamma.


For the life of me, I cannot work out why you still feel this way. :shrug: Everything experienced is in some capacity attributable to past or present kamma.

mikenz66 wrote:Those premature deaths still involve physical things, which, it seems to me could include being involved in some natural disaster.


Certainly. As Bhikkhu Pesala pointed out above, as explained by the commentaries, "Of the five causal laws (niyama), the law of climate (utu niyama) explains why earthquakes and other such natural events (landslides, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc.) happen" and even earlier in the topic Ven. Dhammika (quoting the Buddha) was quoted as saying...

“This great earth is supported by water which is supported by air which is in turn supported by space. When a great wind blows, this stirs up the water and because of the stirring-up of the water the earth quakes” (D.II,107).

Although the Buddha was mistaken in this matter, he was clearly attempting to give a naturalistic explanation for the phenomena.
(Ven. Dhammika blog Jan. 14, 2010)


mikenz66 wrote:I would really welcome some discussion of this point, since I may be misinterpreting retro, the Suttas, or both...


Well, I'm willing to continue discussion on it, though I can't guarantee that your perspective on my analysis will change.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: No comment

Postby cooran » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:22 am

Hello Retro, David,

Although the Buddha was mistaken in this matter, he was clearly attempting to give a naturalistic explanation for the phenomena.
(Ven. Dhammika blog Jan. 14, 2010)


If the Buddha was mistaken on this .... what else would you say he was mistaken on? Or what else can be taken as ultimate truth in what He says? Maybe it could be that Ven. Dhammika didn't understand the teachings?

with metta
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Re: No comment

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:40 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:I still get the feeling that your view is that no bad stuff that we experience is the result of kamma.


For the life of me, I cannot work out why you still feel this way. :shrug: Everything experienced is in some capacity attributable to past or present kamma.

So you agree that it is possible that some earthquake victims suffered in the earthquake because of kamma?

Metta
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Re: No comment

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:42 am

Greetings Cooran,

cooran wrote:If the Buddha was mistaken on this .... what else would you say he was mistaken on?


I am having trouble finding the sutta reference online at the moment (may it's not online), but there is a sutta where the Buddha says that he does not dispute with the wise. Accordingly, if the prevailing wisdom is such, and he has no experiential knowledge which contradicts it, he will not argue against what the wise say, for what basis would he have to do so? Perhaps you or someone else may recall the sutta and know where it can be found? The Buddha was not omniscient in a God-like sense, and there are suttas in the Pali Canon which make this abundantly clear, so there was much "worldly" knowledge about which he would have no basis to reject.

That said, anything he was "mistaken" on, as a result of accepting what the wise say (in the absence of contradictory experiential knowledge of his own) is absolutely inconsequential to the Path and not worth any of us being particularly bothered about. That he didn't know about the workings of tectonic plates and such, is totally irrelevant from the perspective of the Dhamma he taught (as per the quote below)

cooran wrote:Or what else can be taken as ultimate truth in what He says?


Extract from SN 56.31: Simsapa Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them.


That is the "ultimate truth" of what he says. The Four Noble Truths.

cooran wrote:Maybe it could be that Ven. Dhammika didn't understand the teachings?


I would suggest that he did understand, and was suitably and respectfully generous to the Buddha in his analysis. A scientist for example, approaching the matter from a worldly perspective, could have just blatantly dismissed what the Buddha said as ancient ignorance.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: No comment

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:47 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:So you agree that it is possible that some earthquake victims suffered in the earthquake because of kamma?


Well, kamma was a factor in them being born... so how broadly are you casting the net here?

There's quite a complex set of causal relations involved in this suffering you speak of - an example of which can be found in my earlier breakdown of the Angulimala situation - viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3106&start=20#p45847

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: No comment

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:04 am

Any past kamma (of course). I don't see complexity as at all relevant to the principle...

You seem to be rather unsure of your position here...

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Re: No comment

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:07 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Any past kamma (of course). I don't see complexity as at all relevant to the principle...

You seem to be rather unsure of your position here...


Actually, I'm quite clear on my position... it's just that if I respond directly to your question, you will get the wrong end of the stick and interpret my comment to mean something different to what I intend it to mean. I have chosen my words carefully.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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