Pledge of Allegiance...small children

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Butrfly_Nirvana
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Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by Butrfly_Nirvana »

I just had a thought/question...

My son will be learning the pledge of allegiance in school, and while I don't usually "nit pick" about it saying "under God", I was curious about it's appropriateness for small children. The reason I say this is for a few reasons:

1. We are not teaching our children to believe in "God", so is it inappropriate for him to say such a pledge?
2. He's very young, so can he even pledge allegiance to ANYTHING, let alone a country?
3. According to Theravada Buddhism, would it be a bit out of line to pledge allegiance to a country?

Don't get me wrong, I like where I live. I'm American, but I don't think that makes me/us better than anyone else at all. I am just curious as to other people's thoughts on this.
Last edited by Butrfly_Nirvana on Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PeterB
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by PeterB »

Forgive a possibly obvious question from a Brit, but do all children make the same pledge ? Are there exemptions for people of different religions or none ?
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Butrfly_Nirvana
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by Butrfly_Nirvana »

Children in public schools across America are taught this pledge their first year in school, and they have them recite it every morning. I know that there have been a few court cases about schools requiring children of differing religions to say the pledge, but I think that it has remained the same with no alterations made to it. I don't mind our children standing during the pledge out of respect, but I just don't see how a small child can pledge an allegiance to something, and then since we aren't teaching them about "God" it may be confusing to them. Again, I'm not looking to take it to court for changes, just wondering whether this is acceptable to ask from a child as well as if pledging allegiance to a country is still in line with Buddha's teaching.

For those that may not know the pledge of allegiance, it goes as follows:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
meindzai
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by meindzai »

As a child we were Jehovah's witnesses, and so I was exempted from the pledge. I didn't like being a Jehovah's witness much, but I appreciated being exempt from it. I view it more or less as a form of idolitry.

-M
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by tiltbillings »

Butrfly_Nirvana wrote:Children in public schools across America are taught this pledge their first year in school, and they have them recite it every morning. I know that there have been a few court cases about schools requiring children of differing religions to say the pledge, but I think that it has remained the same with no alterations made to it. I don't mind our children standing during the pledge out of respect, but I just don't see how a small child can pledge an allegiance to something, and then since we aren't teaching them about "God" it may be confusing to them. Again, I'm not looking to take it to court for changes, just wondering whether this is acceptable to ask from a child as well as if pledging allegiance to a country is still in line with Buddha's teaching.

For those that may not know the pledge of allegiance, it goes as follows:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
I went to Catholic school for 8 years. In addition to a bunch of prayers we would say the pledge. It was alwayd great fun to say, instead of god, say - from time to time - the name of the kid in front of you just loud enough for him or her to hear, causing uncontrollable giggling, which of course would cause a bit of umbridge from the nun. Or there was always, instead of "In the mame of the father and son and holy ghost" a number of variations. My favorite was: "In the name of the former, of the latter and of the wholy other."

As for one's kid saying it or not, getting the kid exempted from having to say it can also make the kid a target. He doies not have to say, "one nation under God" and very likely no one will ever notice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

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notself
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by notself »

When I was a child the words 'under God' were not in the pledge. (Yes, I am that old) Just tell your child to leave out under God saying that part is for the children who believe in such a being. Or tell you child to put his hand over his heart and say nothing. Or tell you child to say 'with metta' instead of 'under God'. There are a many solutions to the problem.

For those of you who do not live in the US here is the pledge.

I pledge allegence to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

The 'under God' part was added to differentiate America from the godless Soviet Union during the cold war.
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by meindzai »

tiltbillings wrote:
As for one's kid saying it or not, getting the kid exempted from having to say it can also make the kid a target. He doies not have to say, "one nation under God" and very likely no one will ever notice.
When I was a kid, I would stand up, but not put my hand on my heart or do the pledge. Most people didn't even really notice. Sometimes a substitute teacher would try and "correct" the situation at which point I've have to tell her it was against my religion and they'd back off. In fact I can only recall that happening once. All and all it wasn't that alienating. There were other things that were, such as being exempt from holiday activities, but the flag part wasn't bad. In fact I think most of the other kids were more envious that I didn't have to do it.

-M
meindzai
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by meindzai »

You could always have him say "one nation under dog" and claim dyslexia...

-M
PeterB
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by PeterB »

Or " One Nation Under A Groove " while looking cool..... 8-)
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by DNS »

You can get an exemption for religious grounds, like the Jehovah Witnesses do, but rather than risk making them a target (been there, done that), perhaps you could explain to your kids that for your family "God" refers to the Dhamma or perhaps even more appropriate, the devas.

In Buddhism, we don't look up to the devas as absolute or permanent gods, but there is a recollection of devas contemplation / meditation where their good qualities are admired.
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Tex
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by Tex »

I'm just as concerned about first graders being taught to pledge allegiance to a flag and a nation as I am about first graders being told there is a god.

But, as others have said, I would probably tell my kid to recite the pledge along with the others, while explaining a bit more at home about "god" and nationalism.
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Butrfly_Nirvana
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by Butrfly_Nirvana »

David: That is what I had thought about as a possibility. Maybe just explaining it as a general term to mean "with morals/ethics"...

We do still plan to let the kids take part in some of the holidays, just giving them a different meaning. For example instead of celebrating Easter as most Christians would, we just will be celebrating the arrival of spring and let them color eggs and all that kiddie stuff. Then for Christmas we will make it a holiday to remember our family members and love for one another. Since a lot of holidays have become commercialized anyways there isn't any harm in letting them have their fun and games even if it happens to be around the same time of year as the religious holidays! They're kids--they like painting eggs, and getting a present...who doesn't!?

Back to the topic at hand though: Thank you for your input!
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by meindzai »

Tex wrote:I'm just as concerned about first graders being taught to pledge allegiance to a flag and a nation as I am about first graders being told there is a god.
That's been my problem. The whole idea of pledging to a flag gives me the willies.

-M
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Ben
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by Ben »

Hi Butrfly_Nirvana
I would advise you to 'pick your fights wisely'. To me it seems like the pledge is a bit of an empty ritual that nearly all kids go through and instead of making your kids stand out (and others said become a target), explain things to them. One of the things that I did was explain to my kids that God and Jesus are a bit like the easter bunny. They don't really exist except in the minds of some people to make them feel better. I think if you go down that route it takes the power out of a lot of christian indoctination.
kind regards

Ben
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withoutcolour
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance...small children

Post by withoutcolour »

Ben wrote:Hi Butrfly_Nirvana
I would advise you to 'pick your fights wisely'. To me it seems like the pledge is a bit of an empty ritual that nearly all kids go through and instead of making your kids stand out (and others said become a target), explain things to them. One of the things that I did was explain to my kids that God and Jesus are a bit like the easter bunny. They don't really exist except in the minds of some people to make them feel better. I think if you go down that route it takes the power out of a lot of christian indoctination.
kind regards

Ben
Sadhu sadhu sadhu, Ben.
I think nitpicking out little things like this only is just bringing attention to it. When I was in school, I used to say it and not even really know what any of it meant.
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