Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

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Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby Reductor » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:26 am

Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby Guy » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:38 am

Very dangerous territory, indeed.
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby Fede » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:11 am

I personally think it's an infringement of a person's rights to not follow Christianity...It's an imposition and taking liberties.
I also think it lends fuel to the argument that "The Lord God is a jealous God" and that the Bible is in itself as much a book glorifying wrath and vengeance as some consider the Qu'ran to be....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby Mawkish1983 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:23 am

I'm struggling to see the issue here. It's not as though 'Jesus hates Muslims' or some such garbage was plastered all over the sights, there was a subtly encoded reference to the maker's religious affiliation.

I've done this. In code I was writing for software to be used by the Ministery of Defence to help them design nuclear reactors for submarines I snuck the variable name 'bds' in. bds was a table containing all the most essential values... I named it after the triplegem.

Subtle enough that no-one would know, but I knew it was there. Was is skillful? Probably not. Did it harm anyone? Probably not.

<shrugs> remember the nanopictures etched into the surface of microchips a few years ago? Chip designers got bored and doodled. No-one would ever see them, they were there purely for the creator's own amusement.

Maybe I'm missing something with this story, but it seems to of like controversy for controversy's sake.
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:33 am

The story broke here over a week ago when our Dept of Defence discovered that weapons despatched to Iraq and Afghanistan for the use of Australian (and Kiwi) troops were inscribed with encoded biblical messages. The issues I see with it is that it increases the perception the war on terror is a clash of two mutually exclusive religious ideologies, and that the allies are somehow motivated by the same apocalyptic religious zeal. They're just a couple of issues and I am sure there are others.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:42 am

I think it matters. Much of the Muslim world has vivid memories of The Crusades, which they see not as a glorious series of events, but as events of mutual barbaric cruelty. There is for example ample evidence that some Crusaders practised cannibalism.
Bin Laden among others has described the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan as new Crusades, and the troops as the new Crusaders. These marked bullets wil.l in the eyes of much of the Muslim world, confirm that Bin Laden was correct.
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:01 am

Ben wrote:The issues I see with it is that it increases the perception the war on terror is a clash of two mutually exclusive religious ideologies
Depending upon who you ask, it is.

There enough right-wing fundaloonies in this country who see things in exactly those terms. And the same is true of some followers of Islam.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:15 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Ben wrote:The issues I see with it is that it increases the perception the war on terror is a clash of two mutually exclusive religious ideologies
Depending upon who you ask, it is.

There enough right-wing fundaloonies in this country who see things in exactly those terms. And the same is true of some followers of Islam.


Yes, and that's what I am getting at, Tilt. What possibility is there of peace and reconcilliation if both sides see their missio to completely destroy and subjugate the other? Its a recipe for armageddon.
Cheers

Ben
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:25 am

Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Ben wrote:The issues I see with it is that it increases the perception the war on terror is a clash of two mutually exclusive religious ideologies
Depending upon who you ask, it is.

There enough right-wing fundaloonies in this country who see things in exactly those terms. And the same is true of some followers of Islam.


Yes, and that's what I am getting at, Tilt. What possibility is there of peace and reconcilliation if both sides see their missio to completely destroy and subjugate the other? Its a recipe for armageddon.
Cheers

Ben
What is central to this is the religious element, which makes it far more scary and dangerous, each side having their god on their side and if god says it is all right to fly airplanes into buildings or to start unnecessary wars, then it is certainly done with the blessings of the divine, making it assured that one eternal afterlife will be blessed. Makes me long for a simpler time when it was only commies and Mutual Assured Destruction that we had to worry about. Suicide bombers, willi g to contaminant vast sections of the enemy with radioactive debris, or a willingness to do whatever it takes to hurry along the "Rapture." The wack-a-tude level is far higher among those with the direct pipeline to the divine, and god being clearly on both sides shows what warped sense of humor it has..
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby poto » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:46 am

I think it's a big deal over nothing. A private company used religion as part of their naming convention for their serial codes. Private companies and individuals are free to do as they please. The government purchased their equipment because it was the best, not because it had religious inscriptions that they didn't know about.

Frankly, I'm a bit tired of people being overly sensitive on stuff like this. The Muslims extremists freak out over a cartoon Mohammad and pretty much anything else. My very infidel existence offends them, so I am not very concerned if some of them are butthurt over an obscure naming convention.

Is this really important enough to warrant the vast media coverage it has been given? Me thinks not.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:53 am

poto wrote:. The Muslims extremists freak out over a cartoon Mohammad and pretty much anything else.
And are willing to kill over it.
My very infidel existence offends them,
And are willing to kill over it

so I am not very concerned if some of them are butthurt over an obscure naming convention.
But it becomes more reason to kill.

Is this really important enough to warrant the vast media coverage it has been given? Me thinks not.
It might be.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:53 am

You have not made the connection here Poto. Forget the " sensitivity" of Muslims. This is a vivid illustation of exactly why young men from Ohio or Oregan or Cardiff or Carlisle are dying in Afghanistan as we write. There very presence in a Muslim land is seen as an assault on their most fundmental values, just as 9/11 was seen as an assault on the most fundamental values of the west. The inscriptions on those bullets will confirm in the eyes of many Muslims that this is a religious war. The Muslim word for that is Jihad.
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby poto » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:03 am

Many Muslims already see the US presence (or the very existence of the US) as a cause for jihad. Altering a naming convention will not do anything to change that. Really, short of removing ourselves from the planet or converting to Islam, it's not going to change the mindset of the extremists.

I find it absurd that more of my tax payer dollars are going to be spent to buy 'politically correct' weapons of death and destruction. As if that will make all the killing and wars somehow better.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:09 am

poto wrote:Many Muslims already see the US presence (or the very existence of the US) as a cause for jihad. Altering a naming convention will not do anything to change that. Really, short of removing ourselves from the planet or converting to Islam, it's not going to change the mindset of the extremists.

I find it absurd that more of my tax payer dollars are going to be spent to buy 'politically correct' weapons of death and destruction. As if that will make all the killing and wars somehow better.
But why make things worse; why feed into the ongoing hatred, even in the smallest of ways?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:14 am

Bin Laden was a creation of the occupation of the Saudi Peninsula by American and British troops during George H Bush's first Gulf Jihad.
Saddam Hussian was put in power and armed by the west.
The west is now waging an unwinnable war in Afghanistan. To prop up a puppet government.
An issue is that a proportion of the bullets fired by American troops carry Christian slogans.
How major or minor that fact turns out to be is yet to be seen.
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:15 am

Sanghamitta wrote:Bin Laden was a creation of the occupation of the Saudi Peninsula by American and British troops during George H Bush's first Gulf Jihad.
Saddam Hussian was put in power and armed by the west.
The west is now waging an unwinnable war in Afghanistan. To prop up a puppet government.
An issue is that a proportion of the bullets fired by American troops carry Christian slogans.
How major or minor that fact turns out to be is yet to be seen.
George H W Bush
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:16 am

Yes, him.
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby poto » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:25 am

tiltbillings wrote:
poto wrote:Many Muslims already see the US presence (or the very existence of the US) as a cause for jihad. Altering a naming convention will not do anything to change that. Really, short of removing ourselves from the planet or converting to Islam, it's not going to change the mindset of the extremists.

I find it absurd that more of my tax payer dollars are going to be spent to buy 'politically correct' weapons of death and destruction. As if that will make all the killing and wars somehow better.
But why make things worse; why feed into the ongoing hatred, even in the smallest of ways?


The government did not intentionally purchase these things knowing they were marked with religious symbols. It was not intended to incite hate or religious divisions. Some people may take it that way, but those that are most offended will likely not be satisfied until all of western civilization is destroyed anyways. How is it possible to make things worse in the minds of those who are already hell bent on destroying you?

If anything I would support and end-of-life phase out. Where the equipment was gradually replaced as it was worn out or broken. That would probably waste the least amount of money. Of course, we could waste a lot less money if we just ended the wars.

Furthermore, where do we stop? Should we ban the use of names of Greek gods for weapon systems on the off chance that we might offend somebody?

These are weapons of murder. They are inherently offensive things... the idea of making weapons designed to kill 'more sensitive' seems odd to me.

What good does it do to advocate murdering people in a slightly more culturally sensitive way?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:38 am

War is inherently adhammic.
For those who wage war there are ways to engage in that activity which either bring about an earlier resolution. or prolong that activity. Bringing a Christians versus Muslims dimension into a conflict supposedly being fought for political reasons will prolong it.
Last edited by Sanghamitta on Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gun sights, Jesus and Islam

Postby appicchato » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:57 am

The government purchased their equipment because it was the best...


Not by a long shot they didn't...
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