Was Buddha a spoil sport?

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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby Annapurna » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:11 pm

I don't play chess, Seanpx. The little my father explained to me sounded like a lot of strategy, to win...

But no blood on the chessboard so far... ;)

And please, it's not so important what "Annabel" said. I'm not an enemy that wants to spoil your sports.

I wanna talk about what the Buddha said...and how we can come to grips with it.
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby seanpdx » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:22 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sean,

seanpdx wrote:Chess is a violent game. It's a game of war. It teaches deception. It teaches how to take advantage of someone's weaknesses.


You could just see it as a dynamic "puzzle" though, without inferring selves and conflict into the equation.

Maybe not the best example going around, but defusing a bomb could be seen as a "puzzle" even though in the bomb has the potential to blow things and people up.

In other words... it's about the subjective frames of reference being applied, rather than an objective reality.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Certainly. I don't disagree one bit. But if american football (or any other football, let's be honest) isn't conducive to buddhist practice because of its violence, other equally (though less conspicuously) violent games would equally be not conducive to buddhist practice. Football, too, could be seen as a puzzle. With lots of moving pieces. That want to shoulder check you into a goalpost. Ummm... or something like that.

Intention is action. But action is not necessarily intention...
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby seanpdx » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:25 pm

Annabel wrote:I don't play chess, Seanpx. The little my father explained to me sounded like a lot of strategy, to win...

But no blood on the chessboard so far... ;)

And please, it's not so important what "Annabel" said. I'm not an enemy that wants to spoil your sports.

I wanna talk about what the Buddha said...and how we can come to grips with it.


Re-read what you wrote about football.
Then re-read what I wrote about chess.
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:17 pm

Chess is not violent at all. It is a board game. In fact there may even be some Dhamma lessons in chess. For example, if you go after a material advantage and get really greedy about it, you might lose a strategic position and lose.

In fact, many of the best games ever played were won by the side making brilliant queen and rook sacrifices, winning the game with fewer pieces than the opponent.

In regard to the Buddha being a spoil sport; in my opinion, not at all. I have only skimmed the previous posts, so my apologies if this has been mentioned, but the Buddha had a four-fold assembly of monks, nuns, lay men, and lay women. The Buddha was not a spoil sport, but some Buddhists are.

Everyone is at different places along the path. Jesus said, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This is my feeling about it. Everyone has some cravings, some vices, be it music, sport, art, etc. Nothing wrong with that at the moment. We are not arahants yet. We are (most of us here) lay people and some worldly pleasures are to be expected. We can still practice the Dhamma and watch our cravings wane.
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby seanpdx » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:55 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Chess is not violent at all. It is a board game. In fact there may even be some Dhamma lessons in chess. For example, if you go after a material advantage and get really greedy about it, you might lose a strategic position and lose.


But if you're compassionate and selfless, you'll win.
Wait, no...

In fact, many of the best games ever played were won by the side making brilliant queen and rook sacrifices, winning the game with fewer pieces than the opponent.


Lesson: It's ok to sacrifice people if it means you get what you want. See also Vonnegut's excellent short story that brings this concept to life.
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby bodom » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:05 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Everyone is at different places along the path. Jesus said, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This is my feeling about it. Everyone has some cravings, some vices, be it music, sport, art, etc. Nothing wrong with that at the moment. We are not arahants yet. We are (most of us here) lay people and some worldly pleasures are to be expected. We can still practice the Dhamma and watch our cravings wane.


Thank you David that is exactly what I was trying to get across.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:29 am

seanpdx wrote:
Annabel wrote:I don't play chess, Seanpx. The little my father explained to me sounded like a lot of strategy, to win...

But no blood on the chessboard so far... ;)

And please, it's not so important what "Annabel" said. I'm not an enemy that wants to spoil your sports.

I wanna talk about what the Buddha said...and how we can come to grips with it.


Re-read what you wrote about football.
Then re-read what I wrote about chess.


Why? Please be less kryptic.
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby PeterB » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:53 am

Is that a quality of kryptonite ? Watch out mild mannered Clarke Kent !
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:35 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Chess is not violent at all. It is a board game. In fact there may even be some Dhamma lessons in chess. For example, if you go after a material advantage and get really greedy about it, you might lose a strategic position and lose.

In fact, many of the best games ever played were won by the side making brilliant queen and rook sacrifices, winning the game with fewer pieces than the opponent.

In regard to the Buddha being a spoil sport; in my opinion, not at all. I have only skimmed the previous posts, so my apologies if this has been mentioned, but the Buddha had a four-fold assembly of monks, nuns, lay men, and lay women. The Buddha was not a spoil sport, but some Buddhists are.

Everyone is at different places along the path. Jesus said, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This is my feeling about it. Everyone has some cravings, some vices, be it music, sport, art, etc. Nothing wrong with that at the moment. We are not arahants yet. We are (most of us here) lay people and some worldly pleasures are to be expected. We can still practice the Dhamma and watch our cravings wane.


Chess is not violent at all. It is a board game. In fact there may even be some Dhamma lessons in chess.


You may have missed it, since you only skimmed the thread, but I said the same.

In regard to the Buddha being a spoil sport; in my opinion, not at all. I have only skimmed the previous posts, so my apologies if this has been mentioned, but the Buddha had a four-fold assembly of monks, nuns, lay men, and lay women. The Buddha was not a spoil sport, but some Buddhists are.


Are you saying I am? Only wondering.

And it's really a pity you have only skimmed the thread since I'm afraid you missed my point through this.

This thread is not about dissing some of us for their attachments, because obviously, we've all got our own. (Venerables, please excuse the generalization.)

You quite rightly said:

Everyone is at different places along the path.


Absolutely.

If you had read the read completely, you would have noticed that I am asking WHY we need those exceptions, those vacations from the Dhamma...

That included myself, I always spoke of "we" and us". I also have my little time out's, and I said that from the start.

So there is really no need to attack me as a holy roller, hypocrite and perhaps as a spoilsport

I don't accept those "gifts" the Akkosa suttha spoke of. I also thought ad hominems are against the TOS??

Jesus said, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This is my feeling about it.


And the Buddha said:

76-77
Regard him as one who points out treasure, the wise one who seeing your faults rebukes you. Stay with this sort of sage. For the one who stays with a sage of this sort, things get better, not worse. Let him admonish, instruct, deflect you away from poor manners. To the good, he's endearing; to the bad, he's not.


I think in the discussions with each other we are growing with each other and learning from each other. Small hints amongst Buddhist should be seen as well intended, but I know the ego and attachments have a way of reacting with anger when somebody tries to take our pleasure away from us, and so becomes a 'spoilsport'.

But actually, and that is the point of the topic, it is the Dhamma that is disenchanting us with life, with desire and with pleasure.

Those factors keep us "rebecoming", chained to the wheel of reincarnation.

That is why the Buddha marks them as "don't'", in case you really want to hop off the bus.

So, yes, we could say, the Buddha was a spoilsport for those who wish to indulge in worldly pleasures.

But for those who wish to end reincarnations, he is not.

He is the torch which shows the way out.

As I always say:

If you think I am pushing your buttons, good.

I like to have my buttons pushed too, because when I react, I know this person is doing me a favor in the end, after having been a pain in the a**. Only through getting upset I can tell where I need to work.

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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby bodom » Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:29 pm

Annabel wrote:If you think I am pushing your buttons, good.

Im sorry Annabel I dont find your intentionally provoking posts to benefit my practice at all. I would say ordinary everyday life affords me plenty of opportunities to practice with people who push my buttons. But thats just me maybe others enjoy it.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:11 pm

Hey, Bodom,

please quote me in context. To single out a certain sentence, and try to make it evidence for foul intentions is not fair.

I don't intentionally provoke people, and I wonder why you feel provoked?

I didn't even continue to read or post in your thread, so I wouldn't provoke you! But am I please please allowed to have my own thoughts and express them, just like you do?

And could you please stop going ad hominem?

You have called me a hypocrite by now, a holy roller, and now you're accusing me of intentional evil intentions, and I think now fun was had.

If you can't handle any critisism of the superbowl, check your attachment.

I already said I am mighty attached too, so what is your problem??

Is the superbowl a holy cow? Apparently so, if you react in that way.

Next time you play the player and not the ball, I will report you, so you are warned.
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:27 pm

Annapurna wrote:Are you saying I am? Only wondering.


No. No where in my post did I mention you or anyone else's name. I was speaking in general terms. There are some who feel we all must act as though we are already arahants and not have any worldly pleasure. We are all at various points along the path.

Even a once-returner (2 stages below arahant) has some sense desires and worldly pleasures.
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:31 pm

:focus:

Well, then I might as well share my own thoughts as to why we take little breaks, and indulge in little distractions that we enjoy, myself very much included.

I think those 'time outs' serve an important purpose.

Think of your holidays.

You work all year, and then you have your holidays.

You return to work refreshed and with new motivation.

I could imagine we do the same with Buddhist practice.

We have our little islands where we relax and then return to the dhamma, refreshed and with new motivation.

As we progress, we will need them less and less and will be more refreshed by other realities.

But I do think they have an important function while we are still growing towards our goal.
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:53 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Annapurna wrote:Are you saying I am? Only wondering.


No. No where in my post did I mention you or anyone else's name. I was speaking in general terms. There are some who feel we all must act as though we are already arahants and not have any worldly pleasure. We are all at various points along the path.

Even a once-returner (2 stages below arahant) has some sense desires and worldly pleasures.


Fine. I totally agree we are not Arahants yet and we all have our small islands with desire left, sure!
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:14 pm

And to all football lovers:

I apologize if I hurt your feelings. I do have my own superbowls, rest assured. ;)

ok? :hug:

Anna (don't hate me please)
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby baratgab » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:17 pm

Annapurna wrote:Think of your holidays.

You work all year, and then you have your holidays.

You return to work refreshed and with new motivation.

I could imagine we do the same with Buddhist practice.

We have our little islands where we relax and then return to the dhamma, refreshed and with new motivation.


But this suggests that the dhamma is so wearisome and tiring that one regularly needs a break to be able to practice it. :smile: How could one reconcile this with the saying that the dhamma has only one taste, the taste of freedom, just like the taste of salt in the ocean? And if we consider the most fundamental teaching, the Four Noble Truths, it says that the path is about attaining ease. It seems to me that something doesn't fit.

:popcorn:
Last edited by baratgab on Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Just as in the great ocean there is but one taste — the taste of salt — so in this Doctrine and Discipline there is but one taste — the taste of freedom"
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:23 pm

Sheesh.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:55 pm

baratgab wrote:
Annapurna wrote:Think of your holidays.

You work all year, and then you have your holidays.

You return to work refreshed and with new motivation.

I could imagine we do the same with Buddhist practice.

We have our little islands where we relax and then return to the dhamma, refreshed and with new motivation.


But this suggests that the dhamma is so wearisome and tiring that one regularly needs a break to be able to practice it. :smile: How could one reconcile this with the saying that the dhamma has only one taste, the taste of freedom, just like the taste of salt in the ocean? And if we consider the most fundamental teaching, the Four Noble Truths, it says that the path is about attaining ease. It seems to me that something doesn't fit.

:popcorn:



Good points, Baratgab! Like I said, "I could imagine"....

I think to abandon some desires is hard at times. Like, if you don't want to contribute to animals suffering and so want to eat less meat, or become a Vegetarian.

I've gone without meat for many months, but then I eat meat again!

I have spoken to somebody 2 weeks ago who harshly condemned celibacy as "unnatural"...he said it was impossible for him to go without, -but monks can.

So, ...what is easy for some, is hard for others.

No?
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby seanpdx » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Annapurna wrote::focus:

Well, then I might as well share my own thoughts as to why we take little breaks, and indulge in little distractions that we enjoy, myself very much included.

I think those 'time outs' serve an important purpose.

Think of your holidays.

You work all year, and then you have your holidays.

You return to work refreshed and with new motivation.

I could imagine we do the same with Buddhist practice.

We have our little islands where we relax and then return to the dhamma, refreshed and with new motivation.

As we progress, we will need them less and less and will be more refreshed by other realities.

But I do think they have an important function while we are still growing towards our goal.


Wait... I'm confused... is the dhamma the vacation, or is the worldly pleasure a vacation? I can definitely see the former, but I'm not so sure about the latter -- although I could still kinda (sorta maybe perhaps?) see that to a certain extent. I know that in my own experience, the dhamma is very much like a vacation from the stresses of worldly pleasure. I'm not sure I really see worldly pleasure as a vacation from dhamma, although I know that it, too, can sometimes feel like such.
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Re: Was Buddha a spoil sport?

Postby Ben » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:10 pm

Hi Anna
Annapurna wrote:Well, then I might as well share my own thoughts as to why we take little breaks, and indulge in little distractions that we enjoy, myself very much included.
I think those 'time outs' serve an important purpose.
Think of your holidays.
You work all year, and then you have your holidays.
You return to work refreshed and with new motivation.
I could imagine we do the same with Buddhist practice.
We have our little islands where we relax and then return to the dhamma, refreshed and with new motivation.
As we progress, we will need them less and less and will be more refreshed by other realities.
But I do think they have an important function while we are still growing towards our goal.


Good observation! Even during retreats, one is given breaks. My observation is that if some people practice too intensively too soon, they can stop their practice entirely. I think its only natural to slowly incorporate practice into life. After-all, we are flowing against the great tide of ingrained habit patterns and conditionings that has been going on since beginningless time. So long as we are maintaining sila and engaged in right livelihood, our worldly pursuits can serve us well until they finally drop away.
metta

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