Orca kills third human

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Annapurna
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Orca kills third human

Postby Annapurna » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:40 pm

....his 40 year old trainer in Florida. She, who is said to have loved the Orca dearly was pulled under water and drowned.

An expert says Orcas are highly intelligent, plan well, and know exactly what they're doing. He said it was intentional.

I can understand the Orca's "boredom", or anger about having been held "caged", since 27 years, if I remember that correctly.

What I can't understand is why they let an Orca that has killed before have contact with humans?

And what I can't understand at all is why we must keep such beings as dolphins and whales in cages.

I am using this word intentionally.

Thoughts...?



PS: I can't visit zoos.
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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:08 pm

Very unfortunate. May everyone involved be well, happy and peaceful.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Laurens » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:33 pm

Humans have a very arrogant view that they can do what they like to animals and they often assume some kind of ownership of them. Probably thanks to the Biblical notion that humans are superior and have some kind of ownership over all creatures on earth.

Animals can be dangerous, especially when they are put into situations that are scary for them. If humans want to stop being harmed or killed by dangerous animals then they should stop putting them into situations where the creature might get scared or agitated. I hate to use cliches but if you play with fire...

The human involved was there willingly, the animal was there unwillingly - personally for me its hard to be overly sympathetic. Sure, it's sad that someone was killed, but its going to keep happening until we learn.... And that could be a long process.
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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Fede » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:28 pm

we have a local wildlife park, and there animals are cared for and live in as natural a way as possible. Very often, breeding programmes are a useful way of not only studying the instincts and habits of the animal, but it also perpetuates species that are endangered, and that if left in the wild, would face extinction.
The park holds regular shows and gatherings, but these are never to make an animal perform, but to educate the public on the animal's habits, needs and general information on the species.
They never make animals perform, nor use them as an act, for profit.
it's completely educational.

But shows, like the one being gone through, when this woman lost her life....Nope. I hold the same opinion.
Where humans mess with nature, nature has a habit of messing, back.
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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby zavk » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:03 pm

Whenever I read about orca attacks, I'm reminded of the film Free Willy (remember that?). The film does tell a story about how humans tried to free the orca. But at the same time, it also painted an overly romanticized picture of how humans can 'positively' influence animals. Perhaps humans can. But as these attacks show, in the end we really have to respect these animals for what they are.
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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby christopher::: » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:38 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:55 am

Laurens wrote:Humans have a very arrogant view that they can do what they like to animals and they often assume some kind of ownership of them. Probably thanks to the Biblical notion that humans are superior and have some kind of ownership over all creatures on earth. ...

Yes, I think that's behind our attitudes. Darwin gave us the key to changing our views, but some people are reluctant to accept it. Meanwhile, Buddhism teaches compassion for all sentient creatures, which is far better.
Now I come to think of it, is there anything in the dhamma that says we should give people special treatment that other kinds of animals are not entitled to?

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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Annapurna » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:42 am

Laurens wrote:Humans have a very arrogant view that they can do what they like to animals and they often assume some kind of ownership of them. Probably thanks to the Biblical notion that humans are superior and have some kind of ownership over all creatures on earth.

Animals can be dangerous, especially when they are put into situations that are scary for them. If humans want to stop being harmed or killed by dangerous animals then they should stop putting them into situations where the creature might get scared or agitated. I hate to use cliches but if you play with fire...

The human involved was there willingly, the animal was there unwillingly - personally for me its hard to be overly sympathetic. Sure, it's sad that someone was killed, but its going to keep happening until we learn.... And that could be a long process.


The human involved was there willingly, the animal was there unwillingly


Yes, that is the core of the issue, plus that it is stronger and 'wild'.

It's not to blame.
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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Annapurna » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:46 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:Meanwhile, Buddhism teaches compassion for all sentient creatures, which is far better.
:namaste:
Kim


Um....apologies if I add something, just for the sake of justice. :smile:

"One of these days I will ask back the souls of my animals out of your hands, man, " is also in the Bible.

Translates as: WE are answerable for their physical & emotional well being....and if we don't accomplish that, it will have negative results.

:anjali:

Now I come to think of it, is there anything in the dhamma that says we should give people special treatment that other kinds of animals are not entitled to?


Um,....I read that it is more blameworthy (with worse kammic results) to kill a Buddha or Arahant than a "normal" human being, and more blameworthy to kill a human being than let's say, a cat, and more blameworthy to kill a cat than an insect..... :thinking:
Last edited by Annapurna on Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:02 am

Annapurna wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:Now I come to think of it, is there anything in the dhamma that says we should give people special treatment that other kinds of animals are not entitled to?


Um,....I read that it is more blameworthy (with worse kammic results) to kill a Buddha or Arahant than a "normal" human being, and more blameworthy to kill a human being than let's say, a cat, and more blameworthy to kill a cat than an insect..... :thinking:

That is my general impression, too, but I don't remember a specific source for it.
:thinking:

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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Annapurna » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:01 pm

Fede wrote:we have a local wildlife park, and there animals are cared for and live in as natural a way as possible. Very often, breeding programmes are a useful way of not only studying the instincts and habits of the animal, but it also perpetuates species that are endangered, and that if left in the wild, would face extinction.
The park holds regular shows and gatherings, but these are never to make an animal perform, but to educate the public on the animal's habits, needs and general information on the species.
They never make animals perform, nor use them as an act, for profit.
it's completely educational.

But shows, like the one being gone through, when this woman lost her life....Nope. I hold the same opinion.
Where humans mess with nature, nature has a habit of messing, back.


Thanks, that is a good example, it seems. But most Zoos don't work that way, and I am tortured by seeing those beautiful animals with too little space and always exposed to masses of curious looks.
Where humans mess with nature, nature has a habit of messing, back.


Very true!
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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Annapurna » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:06 pm

zavk wrote:Whenever I read about orca attacks, I'm reminded of the film Free Willy (remember that?). The film does tell a story about how humans tried to free the orca. But at the same time, it also painted an overly romanticized picture of how humans can 'positively' influence animals. Perhaps humans can. But as these attacks show, in the end we really have to respect these animals for what they are.


I do think that we can positively influence animals, think of cats and dogs, but as soon as they become larger and more dangerous, like tigers and elefants, we should be very aware of their potential to strike back, especially when we take essential things from them, such as free will and liberty.

I think we really have to blame ourselves for any damage they might do to us, because we gave them a chance to.

Who is to blame when I pick up a cat, which doesn't want to be picked up and then scratches me ?

I am to blame, because I didn't respect her free will and overruled her with my strenght.

Likewise with an Orca, only that when he strikes it is more than just a scratch on skin.
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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Clueless Git » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:21 pm

Annapurna wrote:I do think that we can positively influence animals, think of cats and dogs, but as soon as they become larger and more dangerous, like tigers and elefants, we should be very aware of their potential to strike back, especially when we take essential things from them, such as free will and liberty.

'Lo Anna :)

Is respecting the nature of animals according to their ability to hurt us commensurate with equanamity?

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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Annapurna » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:56 pm

'Lo, dear Git, I can't translate your sentence.... :shrug:

Here is an article about the accident.

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=we ... fO_iwnJ39Q
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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby chownah » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:00 pm

Annapurna wrote:
Um,....I read that it is more blameworthy (with worse kammic results) to kill a Buddha or Arahant than a "normal" human being, and more blameworthy to kill a human being than let's say, a cat, and more blameworthy to kill a cat than an insect..... :thinking:

If I remember correctly, there was a discussion on another forum which no longer exists about this and it seems that the only canonical reference (Theravada Canon that is) as to which animals are worst to kill was that the bigger the animal the worse it was....also there was a Mahayana side comment that the more complex the animal was the worse it was but this view was never documented as being in the Theravada Canon.
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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Annapurna » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:48 pm

Thanks, Chowna. Yes, I remember.....a large size, was argued, requires more determination and effort to kill.

I think one of the Venerables also pointed out that the higher developed animal suffers more, has 5, instead of 4 senses, 'aggregates'?
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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:06 pm

So it's worse to kill a whale or an elephant than a person?
:thinking:
:popcorn:

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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby christopher::: » Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:04 am

Shows to go on at SeaWorld, king of orca business

excerpts:

Shamu shows will resume Saturday, three days after a six-ton bull orca dragged Dawn Brancheau underwater to her death at the end of a show in Orlando, SeaWorld Parks and Entertainment President Jim Atchison said Friday.... "We have created an extraordinary opportunity for people to get an up-close, personal experience and be inspired and connect with marine life in a way they cannot do anywhere else in the world," Atchison said as orcas swam behind him on the other side of an underwater window, "and for that we will make no apologies."

The timing of the killer whales' return to performances reflects just what the sleek black-and-white mammals mean to SeaWorld, which the private equity firm The Blackstone Group bought last fall for around $2.7 billion from Anheuser-Busch InBev in a deal that included two Busch Gardens theme parks and several other attractions. "SeaWorld operations are built around Shamu and the orca. So quantitatively they mean literally hundreds of millions of dollars to that company," said Dennis Speigel, president of International Theme Park Services, a consulting firm.

No animal is more valuable to that operation than Tilikum, the largest orca in captivity, which now has been involved in the deaths of two trainers and requires a special set of handling rules, which Atchison wouldn't specify. Captured nearly 30 years ago off Iceland, Tilikum has grown into the alpha male of captive killer whales, his value as a stud impossible to pin down.

Killer whales — actually part of the porpoise family — aren't endangered; estimates of their worldwide population range from 50,000 to more than 100,000. But it is illegal to capture killer whales in the U.S. and several other countries, and while a few have been caught in recent years in Russia and Japan, U.S. import laws make it difficult to acquire an orca caught in the wild. "Really, you can't buy them," said Speigel, who put the market value of an individual whale at up to $10 million.

That makes breeding the best way to build a collection of killer whales to draw in visitors at up to $78.95 apiece to sit in the splash zone or take pictures of their kids petting Shamu, the stage name SeaWorld gives all of its adult orcas in shows. And no one is better at breeding killer whales than SeaWorld. The company owns 25 of the 42 orcas in captivity, and other theme parks sometimes come to SeaWorld to get theirs.

At the heart of it all is Tilikum, bought in 1992 from a now-defunct Canadian park where he was one of three orcas that battered and submerged a fallen trainer until she died. After the woman slipped into the water, she became like a plaything to the three whales, said Adam Hellicar, a former diver at Sealand of the Pacific near Victoria, British Columbia.

"They were towing her around by her clothing," said Hellicar, who helped recover the woman's body. SeaWorld got an emergency permit to buy Tilikum and the other two whales less than a year after that attack, and he became the company's go-to sire. Of the 20 calves born at SeaWorld parks, Tilikum has fathered 13, the company said. SeaWorld has only one other breeding male at the moment.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Annapurna » Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:14 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:So it's worse to kill a whale or an elephant than a person?
:thinking:
:popcorn:

Kim


Is an animal on a higher plane than a human? :popcorn:
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Re: Orca kills third human

Postby Annapurna » Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:36 pm

christopher::: wrote:Shows to go on at SeaWorld, king of orca business

excerpts:

Shamu shows will resume Saturday, three days after a six-ton bull orca dragged Dawn Brancheau underwater to her death at the end of a show in Orlando, SeaWorld Parks and Entertainment President Jim Atchison said Friday.... "We have created an extraordinary opportunity for people to get an up-close, personal experience and be inspired and connect with marine life in a way they cannot do anywhere else in the world," Atchison said as orcas swam behind him on the other side of an underwater window, "and for that we will make no apologies."

The timing of the killer whales' return to performances reflects just what the sleek black-and-white mammals mean to SeaWorld, which the private equity firm The Blackstone Group bought last fall for around $2.7 billion from Anheuser-Busch InBev in a deal that included two Busch Gardens theme parks and several other attractions. "SeaWorld operations are built around Shamu and the orca. So quantitatively they mean literally hundreds of millions of dollars to that company," said Dennis Speigel, president of International Theme Park Services, a consulting firm.

No animal is more valuable to that operation than Tilikum, the largest orca in captivity, which now has been involved in the deaths of two trainers and requires a special set of handling rules, which Atchison wouldn't specify. Captured nearly 30 years ago off Iceland, Tilikum has grown into the alpha male of captive killer whales, his value as a stud impossible to pin down.

Killer whales — actually part of the porpoise family — aren't endangered; estimates of their worldwide population range from 50,000 to more than 100,000. But it is illegal to capture killer whales in the U.S. and several other countries, and while a few have been caught in recent years in Russia and Japan, U.S. import laws make it difficult to acquire an orca caught in the wild. "Really, you can't buy them," said Speigel, who put the market value of an individual whale at up to $10 million.

That makes breeding the best way to build a collection of killer whales to draw in visitors at up to $78.95 apiece to sit in the splash zone or take pictures of their kids petting Shamu, the stage name SeaWorld gives all of its adult orcas in shows. And no one is better at breeding killer whales than SeaWorld. The company owns 25 of the 42 orcas in captivity, and other theme parks sometimes come to SeaWorld to get theirs.

At the heart of it all is Tilikum, bought in 1992 from a now-defunct Canadian park where he was one of three orcas that battered and submerged a fallen trainer until she died. After the woman slipped into the water, she became like a plaything to the three whales, said Adam Hellicar, a former diver at Sealand of the Pacific near Victoria, British Columbia.

"They were towing her around by her clothing," said Hellicar, who helped recover the woman's body. SeaWorld got an emergency permit to buy Tilikum and the other two whales less than a year after that attack, and he became the company's go-to sire. Of the 20 calves born at SeaWorld parks, Tilikum has fathered 13, the company said. SeaWorld has only one other breeding male at the moment.


There is so much money involved.

It almost sounds as if the death of trainers is something they accept as collateral damage.
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