Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

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Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby suriyopama » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:26 am

I am surprised to see at the news some Thai monks giving blood to splash over the prime minister house in Thailand. It is also said that the head monk of a wat in Chiang Mai used this blood to split on the soldiers (he was going to throw it over a spirit house, but the soldiers tried to stop him and they were splashed, not accidentally: one glass of blood per soldier).

Is there no authority that can take control over those monks? It's a public violation of the precepts.

At the New York TImes It says:

“To make a monk bleed is one of the worst sins,” said Phol Chanthasaro, a monk in orange robes who stood at the gates of Government House. “I want the government to understand right and wrong.”

So, they're trying to make the government to feel guilty of the sin of making the monks bleed!! :thinking:

How far can this go? :shrug:
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby suriyopama » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:59 am

I've just seen more news on TV: today there was a group of monks giving their blessings to the soldiers in Chiang Mai, in apologize for what happened yesterday. My wife says that they’re talking about taking some action against this small group of monks.
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby plwk » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:31 am

'Of good conduct is the Order of Disciples of the Blessed One,
of upright conduct is the Order of Disciples of the Blessed One,
of wise conduct is the Order of Disciples of the Blessed One,
of dutiful conduct is the Order of Disciples of the Blessed One.
This Order of Disciples of the Blessed One —
namely those four pairs of persons,
the eight kinds of individuals —
is worthy of offerings, is worthy of hospitality,
is worthy of gifts, is worthy of reverential salutations,
is an incomparable field of merit for the world.'

Sangham saranam gacchāmi :anjali:
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby BlackBird » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:52 am

Rupa-monks are still a support for the mind if one is venerating what they represent rather than their actions. That's my take anyway.

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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby gavesako » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:51 am

Most people abroad don't realize how much the politicians and generals in countries like Thailand and Burma rely on the advice of astrologers and black magic. This is from BKK Post:

The planned blood protest in front of the Government House is the first step of the UDD’s escalated protest to pressure Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva to either dissolve the House or resign, to pave the way for fresh elections. If that fails to scare off Mr Abhisit, more blood will be splashed in front of the parliament, then at the prime minister’s Sukhumvit residence.
According to astrologer Chatchaval Paosawat, the splashing of blood is a Khmer black magic ritual and could be a ploy for the UDD to curse the government. Many of their followers are from the superstitious Northeast. But whatever the real motive of the ritual, the splashing of such a substantial amount of blood is a complete waste, is pointless and will achieve nothing. It flies in the face of the rules of public safety, which forbids the splashing of blood - a potentially infectious fluid - in public places. Last, but not least, it also suggests that the UDD leadership has no more effective tricks waiting up their sleeves to be pulled out.


During the previous PAD protests (yellow shirts), they did some similar magic ritual at the statue of a deity thought to protect Siam which has apparently been cursed by Thaksin's Khmer magician... Obviously in such unpredictable situations such as now, the leaders are not fully in control and need to rely on something supernatural to feel confident.

And here are some pictures of the ritual:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/thaksin ... t-Party-HQ

However, not all Thai brahmins agree with the procedure as it was conducted:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politic ... f-holy-row

I read somewhere that the monk who splashed blood in Chiang Mai has already been disrobed. That was quick...
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby PeterB » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:01 pm

suriyopama wrote:I am surprised to see at the news some Thai monks giving blood to splash over the prime minister house in Thailand. It is also said that the head monk of a wat in Chiang Mai used this blood to split on the soldiers (he was going to throw it over a spirit house, but the soldiers tried to stop him and they were splashed, not accidentally: one glass of blood per soldier).

Is there no authority that can take control over those monks? It's a public violation of the precepts.

At the New York TImes It says:

“To make a monk bleed is one of the worst sins,” said Phol Chanthasaro, a monk in orange robes who stood at the gates of Government House. “I want the government to understand right and wrong.”

So, they're trying to make the government to feel guilty of the sin of making the monks bleed!! :thinking:

How far can this go? :shrug:

Its certainly public. But how exactly does it breach the precepts ?
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby Brizzy » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:02 pm

PeterB wrote:
suriyopama wrote:I am surprised to see at the news some Thai monks giving blood to splash over the prime minister house in Thailand. It is also said that the head monk of a wat in Chiang Mai used this blood to split on the soldiers (he was going to throw it over a spirit house, but the soldiers tried to stop him and they were splashed, not accidentally: one glass of blood per soldier).

Is there no authority that can take control over those monks? It's a public violation of the precepts.

At the New York TImes It says:

“To make a monk bleed is one of the worst sins,” said Phol Chanthasaro, a monk in orange robes who stood at the gates of Government House. “I want the government to understand right and wrong.”

So, they're trying to make the government to feel guilty of the sin of making the monks bleed!! :thinking:

How far can this go? :shrug:

Its certainly public. But how exactly does it breach the precepts ?


Hi

It is a violent act. Violence in any form is condemned by the Buddha. Also, for a monk to be involved in politics in any way, would be against the Buddhas teaching.

:smile:
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby PeterB » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:11 pm

Thats one interpretation of the actions of the Bhikkhus.
However what I asked is how those actions it is breach of the precepts. Which precept does it breach ?
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby suriyopama » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:28 pm

PeterB wrote:Thats one interpretation of the actions of the Bhikkhus.
However what I asked is how those actions it is breach of the precepts. Which precept does it breach ?


Right Resolve (or Right Intention)?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-sankappo/index.html

"Here, bhikkhus, a certain person abides with his heart imbued with loving-kindness extending over one quarter, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, likewise the fourth quarter, and so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself; he abides with his heart abundant, exalted, measureless in loving-kindness, without hostility or ill-will, extending over the all-encompassing world."
— AN 4.125

"While you are performing a bodily act, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily act I am doing — is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful bodily act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to affliction of others, or both... you should give it up."
— MN 61
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby appicchato » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:41 pm

suriyopama wrote:
PeterB wrote:Thats one interpretation of the actions of the Bhikkhus.
However what I asked is how those actions it is breach of the precepts. Which precept does it breach ?


Right Resolve (or Right Intention)?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-sankappo/index.html

"Here, bhikkhus, a certain person abides with his heart imbued with loving-kindness extending over one quarter, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, likewise the fourth quarter, and so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself; he abides with his heart abundant, exalted, measureless in loving-kindness, without hostility or ill-will, extending over the all-encompassing world."
— AN 4.125

"While you are performing a bodily act, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily act I am doing — is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful bodily act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to affliction of others, or both... you should give it up."
— MN 61


Right Intention is part of the Noble Eightfold Path...not Vinaya...my read it doesn't break any precept...although that doesn't make it beneficial, nor skillful...
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby gavesako » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:36 pm

In this article, a prominent Thai monk says that such behaviour is "loka-vajja", i.e. perceived as a fault in the eyes of the world. Bhikkhus should refrain from doing such things.

http://www.thairath.co.th/content/region/70077
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby gavesako » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:12 pm

Monks are apparently trying to prevent violence by their presence:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/thaksin ... hirt-rally
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby Mukunda » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:46 pm

gavesako wrote:In this article, a prominent Thai monk says that such behaviour is "loka-vajja", i.e. perceived as a fault in the eyes of the world. Bhikkhus should refrain from doing such things.

http://www.thairath.co.th/content/region/70077


One should be very careful using that argument, as depending on differences in cultures, quite a few standard practices (i.e. bowing before Buddha images, renouncing family life, etc) could be perceived as fault in the "eyes of the world".
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby salmon » Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:06 am

How do you know that the monks who participated are real monks? I heard in the Thai grapevine that alot of the "monks" who participated in the Red Shirt rally ordained less than a month prior to the event. :thinking:
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:16 am

that's still a real monk.


but how is dumping a bunch of donated blood a violent action? certainly seems to be a less violent action than the "real" spilling of blood
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:21 am

“To make a monk bleed is one of the worst sins,” said Phol Chanthasaro, a monk in orange robes who stood at the gates of Government House. “I want the government to understand right and wrong.”


PeterB wrote:Thats one interpretation of the actions of the Bhikkhus.
However what I asked is how those actions it is breach of the precepts. Which precept does it breach ?


Sounds to me like they are conflating one of the five heinous offences of causing a Buddha to bleed, with that of "making a monk bleed".
Of course, to injure oneself (as these monks did), and then say: "You made me do this!" is classic passive-aggressive action, the art of manipulation.
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby BlackBird » Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:45 am

jcsuperstar wrote:that's still a real monk.


To hazard a guess at what Salmon might be getting at: They may not have ordained for any other purpose than to be seen as monks pouring blood onto the streets.[/speculation]

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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby salmon » Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:04 am

BlackBird wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:that's still a real monk.


To hazard a guess at what Salmon might be getting at: They may not have ordained for any other purpose than to be seen as monks pouring blood onto the streets.[/speculation]

metta
Jack


Right you are, BlackBird. This is in addition to the fact that there are unothordox factions of Buddhism in Thailand. The whole rally is a planned political project. The Buddha did expound in the Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta there will be "yellow necks" when the state of the religion is in its decline.

By the way, I thought the heinous crime is to make an ARAHANT bleed and not any normal monk?
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby alan » Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:26 pm

I'm in Bangkok. Been watching this whole depressing affair in real time, and my opinion of everything Thai is going down the drain.
The "Red Shirts", mostly poor farmers, are rallying for their great hero--a corrupt Billionaire. Because he really cares about them don't you see.
The monks seem just as clueless as anyone else.

*Just as a sidebar let me say that if you cherish the idea of the Mystic East, the Land of Buddhists where you can go to get away from Western Commercialism, you would be sadly mistaken.*
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Re: Monks splashing blood. No authority at the monkhood?

Postby gavesako » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:33 pm

Very good article on this subject:


In Thailand, A Little Black Magic Is Politics as Usual

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 71,00.html


"... Thailand is a nation that prides itself on its Theravada Buddhist heritage. But Buddhism in Thailand is blended with a brew of Hindu, animist, Khmer, pagan and other beliefs. King Bhumibol Adulyadej, the country's 82-year-old constitutional monarch, spent time as a Buddhist monk but also retains astrologers and Brahmin priests at court, as is tradition. So it's no wonder that coup plotters, Prime Ministers and lawmakers have frequently consulted fortune-tellers before making important decisions. Performing dark rites to increase one's power and defeat your adversaries is as pervasive among the political class as bribery and vote buying. Even Thaksin, who became a billionaire from satellite services, computers and telecommunications, once declined to answer a reporter's question because "Mercury [was] not in the right house."

In fact, according to Wassana Namnuan, a Bangkok Post reporter, Thaksin and his opponents have been deeply engaged in black magic battles for dominance of the country for several years. "Both sides have been casting curses and spells upon each other," says Wassana who has written a book on the subject in Thai called Secrets, Trickery and Camouflage: The Improbable Phenomena. According to Wassana, Thaksin believes he is the reincarnation of a Burmese king who killed many Thais, and so has engaged in elaborate cleansing rituals to wash away the sins of his past lives. While in power, Wassana says Thaksin performed several saiyasat, or black magic rituals, that he hoped would prolong his rule for life. While visiting Burma he sought counsel from a deformed astrologer nicknamed "ET" who is favored by the generals that have kept the country in their iron grip for more than half a century.

More ominously, Wassana says, Thaksin and many of his followers also believe he is the reincarnation of King Taksin, who ruled in the late 18th century. King Taksin went mad, and so was ousted and executed in 1782 by a general who then proclaimed himself king and founded the Chakri Dynasty. (King Bhumibol, Thailand's present king, is a descendant of that general and part of the Chakri Dynasty.) Thaksin has frequently blamed King Bhumibol's advisors for the coup that ousted him, and claimed they informed the king in advance about the coup. The royal advisors have denied the allegations.

Images of King Bhumibol at Red Shirt rallies are almost completely absent. Instead, red shirt leaders keep a statue of King Taksin at their rallies, some Red Shirt guards dress in the style of King Taksin's soldiers, and banners spell the ousted prime minister's name in the manner of the 18th century king. It's a revelation in a land where near-universal reverence for King Bhumibol has long been assumed. But Thaksin may feel his time is coming, as the king is 82 and ill health. And just about any Thai will tell you that astrologers have foretold there will only be nine Chakri kings. King Bhumibol is the ninth Chakri king.

Thaksin's opponents are equally steeped in the supernatural. The generals who overthrew Thaksin made special trips to Chiang Mai to consult a leading astrologer both before and after their 2006 coup. According to Wassana, the astrologer told her in an interview that he advised the coup makers they would be successful in their putsch, and afterwards performed ceremonies with them in Bangkok to further increase their power. "In the last two successful coups in 1991 and 2006,'' says Craig Reynolds, a professor of Thai history at Australian National University, "the astrologer who advised the chief coup planner became the astrologer for the coup group once it had assumed power."

The Red Shirts are not the only ones to perform blood rites. Sondhi Limthongkul, leader of the anti-Thaksin Yellow Shirt movement and the owner of ASTV satellite news network, spread menstrual blood at the base of a statue in a black magic ritual meant to neutralize Thaksin's supernatural weapons. It was just one of several acts staged by Sondhi with black magic overtones.

And all political factions and the military are wary of Newin Chidchob, a political boss from Buriram near the Cambodian border who commands the Bhumjai Thai political party. Newin is something of a kingmaker, having been a loyal aide to Thaksin before switching camps so the Democrat party could govern. Newin's real value, however, may be his knowledge of the occult, and in particular Cambodian curses. "Newin's nickname in Thai politics is 'the Wizard of Khmer Black Magic','' Wassana says. Newin's knowledge of Cambodian occult practices may be useful for Abhisit. Because of Thailand's conflict with Cambodia over an ancient border temple, the current PM has also been cursed by Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen, who proclaimed last year, "Let magic objects break your neck, may you be shot, be hit by a car, may you be shocked by electricity or [ may you be shot] by misfired guns. ..."

:stirthepot:
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