thailand political situation

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gavesako
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Re: thailand political situation

Post by gavesako »

A good story here:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/leisure/leis ... o-town-now" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


And here an interesting personal account from a Westerner in Thailand, which is related to the rally in Ubon reported earlier:


many people wonder how the redshirts fund their activities

lets just explore this a little:

someone a couple of months ago said that after the travelling seminars around the country there were 1.5M red members @50Baht each

probably lot more members now (especially after the military action)

plus heaps of donations, we were at the rally at Rajamangala Stadium 2 years ago and joined many people in donating, there were lots of notes up to 1oooBaht in the box which was emptied every couple of hours

and a very indirectly related story:

about 10 years ago we went to the funeral of Ajahn Chah, a revered monk near Ubon

we helped in one of the big group of food kitchens that were setup ro feed people for 2 week period

it started with only a few thousand people camped in the forest, by the end of the week the MEA was installing major new electric power lines and transformers and truck loads of rice and all donated foodstuffs were streaming in.

we were feeding everyone for free, the crowd peaked at 1.5M people that turned up for the two nights and the day of the funeral

so a rally of 100,000 or so is childs play and possibly not as significant for the people of Esaan

its also an indication why Esaan people dont quite understand Bangkok peoples fixation on trivia like money



The presence of Buddhist monks at the red shirt rallies is easy to understand: most of these people from the provinces offer food to the monks every morning and their lives are much closer to the local temples than those of the Bangkok people, who may occasionally visit a nice touristy place on the weekend, but they often don't have any direct connection with the Sangha.

I know that some of the monks at Wat Pathum in Siam Square, for example, come from the "red areas" in Isaan, and so they were trying to help them by providing a safe zone as a shelter.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Pannapetar
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Re: thailand political situation

Post by Pannapetar »

In times like this, some people wonder whether democracy and rule of law can work at all in Thailand.

The road to democracy is hardly ever a smooth one. If you look at the history of those nations where democratic rule is now firmly established, it becomes obvious that this did not happen by chance, but with considerable struggle and often with conflict. Libertarian civil rights, rule of law, transparency, and democratic leadership don't come for free. Thailand is no exception. In addition to the difficult task of establishing the mentioned qualities in society, Thailand also faces the challenge of jumping from a traditional agrarian society to an industrial (post-)modern society, a process which has been underway for at least four decades and which probably takes several more decades to complete. We should expect occasional setbacks, such as the current political crisis.

Thailand must not take this as pretext to question libertarian civil rights and the path to democratic rule.

Cheers, Thomas
Last edited by Pannapetar on Tue May 25, 2010 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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robertk
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Re: thailand political situation

Post by robertk »

Latest from The Nation newspaper- singling out CNN and Dan Rivers for bias against Thailand.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/20 ... 30095.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The red shirts have become a real peril in this land. They are a serious threat to national security, with or without Thaksin being around to finance their future destructive campaigns. Such horrible scenarios could be prevented if the ringleaders and their network of extremist supporters are uprooted once and for all.

The violence and tragedy - with up to 100 dead and several hundreds injured - captured headlines around the world, and news networks had a field day, some with fair reporting. However, a few major news organisations showed how they could be biased to make the country's administration look much worse than in reality.

The US saw 9/11, and the bringing down of the World Trade Centre. We just suffered May 19, with the CentralWorld complex, earlier named the World Trade Centre, going up in smoke. A "ground zero" on a smaller scale.


The US has an enemy by the name of Bin Laden, who has eluded capture for years. We have an enemy named Thaksin Shinawatra who deserves the title of public enemy number one, and has already been branded a terrorist by the government. .

The Americans have seen the Black Panthers and other urban terrorists, freak groups led by the likes of Jim Jones, and violent incidents like Waco. We have the red shirts, who are mean and lethal, comprising thugs, thieves, looters, assassins, saboteurs, vandals and charlatans campaigning for "democracy" on Thaksin's payroll.

America had an excellent newscaster named Dan Rather, but now we have the new-rich Dan Rivers of CNN, who lives here and gives Thailand a bad name it does not deserve.


The Thai Media and Thai govt. outrage against the biased foreign media is continuing to grow. Kasit Promiya (the Foreign Minister and PAD yellowshirt leader) says he cannot understand how foreign diplomats and media don't fully support the actions of the govt.
nathan
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Re: thailand political situation

Post by nathan »

gavesako wrote:I think most of the Westerners who are Buddhists have a positive view of Thailand and appreciate the kindness of the people there, especially those of us who are monks and have lived there. It is therefore hard to understand how so much hate and aggression can occur among those who call themselves Buddhists. In particular, why almost nobody seems to listen to what the Buddhist monks have to say and follow their advice? And how come we see photos like this one showing soldiers shooting at a Buddhist temple with people inside it?
I don't have answers to your specific questions Ven. Gavesako but my impression of what is happening in Thailand appears consistent with my impressions of what is happening in various forms most countries. Globalization appears to be having the net effect of reducing the vast majority of all citizens of all countries to conditions of increasing deprivation, poverty and powerlessness while elevating the remaining few to positions of previously unachievable wealth and power. The wealthy and powerful increasingly don't identify with the citizens of any country and are effectively non-national or global citizens who can go where they please and do as they like. As it is wealth and power that sustains them, those few who have these benefits focus their attentions on the health of multi-national corporations, and the global institutions which maintain markets and market stability. As a result of these conditions there is a growing social chasm between the rulers and the citizens of all countries.

I don't find any traditional teachings from the past centuries, buddhist or otherwise, that lend themselves to adaptation to the present and emerging conditions. The ways that the world is organized now have created conditions which have no structural resemblances to the ways that societies were ordered in the past. The growing disparities naturally give rise to a great deal of suffering and discontent. If the citizens of nations do not react to the increasingly oppressive conditions they are experiencing, then they have no reason to expect that they will ever know a return to more balanced and equitable societies. As no population in any country has yet developed the appropriate skillful means to meet these challenges I think we can expect to see a great many unskillful means applied for some time to come. That will probably be the only context in which we may see the development of the appropriate skillful and effective means that the people of the world will need in order to have a global society that serves the interests of all peoples of all nations instead of only a very few.

It is asking a lot to expect monks to be expert in global geopolitics, social demographics and market economics. I wouldn't expect guidance on these complex contemporary issues to come fully formed from monastics or religious teachers in general but any insight that dhamma teachings can bring to bear is always appreciated.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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robertk
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Re: thailand political situation

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http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_ ... 7Ae01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
interesting article from 3 years back- how the yellow shirts leader saw it at that time.
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cooran
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Re: thailand political situation

Post by cooran »

Thailand issues warrant for Thaksin over protests"

The Thai government says Mr Thaksin was a key player in recent unrest
A Thai court has approved an arrest warrant for ousted leader Thaksin Shinawatra on terrorism charges related to recent anti-government protests.
The nine-week protest paralysed parts of Bangkok and left more than 80 people dead.
Many of the protesters were supporters of Mr Thaksin, and the Thai government accuses him of fomenting the unrest.
In a separate development, authorities have extended an overnight curfew in Bangkok and 23 provinces.
A curfew has been in force since the government operation to disperse protesters on 19 May and the subsequent fires and unrest across the city.
Authorities said the curfew would run for four more nights, between the hours of 0000 and 0400.
'Enough evidence'
Mr Thaksin was ousted by the military in a 2006 coup, then convicted of corruption in absentia. He now lives overseas.
Many of the red-shirt protesters who arrived in Bangkok on 14 March and shut down key parts of the city for two months support him.
Thai prosecutors have accused him of co-ordinating the protests, and an official said that the court found there was reason to issue a warrant.
"The court said there was enough evidence to believe that Thaksin was the mastermind, having played a significant role in instructing and manipulating the incidents," Department of Special Investigations chief Tharit Pengdit told Reuters news agency.
Mr Thaksin rejected the charges in a statement issued through a legal advisor.
"I have never supported violence," he said. "The arrest warrant against me is unfair. I am ready to prove that I am not a terrorist and the accusation is politically motivated."
This is a much more serious charge than anything Mr Thaksin has ever faced before but, say correspondents, whether the warrant will be effective is the big question.
It is not known where Mr Thaksin lives. He travels widely, splitting his time between Dubai and Montenegro, which recently issued him with a passport.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_p ... 152436.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Pannapetar
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Re: thailand political situation

Post by Pannapetar »

nathan wrote:Globalization appears to be having the net effect of reducing the vast majority of all citizens of all countries to conditions of increasing deprivation, poverty and powerlessness while elevating the remaining few to positions of previously unachievable wealth and power. The wealthy and powerful increasingly don't identify with the citizens of any country and are effectively non-national or global citizens who can go where they please and do as they like.
I doubt this is true for Thailand, because Thai society was always very hierarchic and stratified. There used to be a very large class of "regular" people (farmers, workers, servants), a relatively small group of officers of the state and a tiny elite, mostly royals and land-owning gentry. Industrialisation and globalisation have actually helped making these class barriers fuzzier and more permeable. They also fostered the development of a new middle class centered in Bangkok. Of course, globalisation likewise had some negative consequences. The biggest mistake yet was probably the free trade agreement with China (and to a lesser degree that with the US and Australia) which was ratified by the late Thaksin administration in 2004 due to Thaksin's pushing. Especially the China free trade agreement has hurt farmers in an unprecedented way.

Overall, globalisation was good for Thailand, but ruthless politicians like Thaksin have unfortunately gambled away some of the advantage in exchange for personal gain, i.e. international business interests of the oligarchs (such as Thaksin).

Cheers, Thomas
nathan
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Re: thailand political situation

Post by nathan »

Pannapetar wrote:
nathan wrote:Globalization appears to be having the net effect of reducing the vast majority of all citizens of all countries to conditions of increasing deprivation, poverty and powerlessness while elevating the remaining few to positions of previously unachievable wealth and power. The wealthy and powerful increasingly don't identify with the citizens of any country and are effectively non-national or global citizens who can go where they please and do as they like.
I doubt this is true for Thailand, because Thai society was always very hierarchic and stratified. There used to be a very large class of "regular" people (farmers, workers, servants), a relatively small group of officers of the state and a tiny elite, mostly royals and land-owning gentry. Industrialisation and globalisation have actually helped making these class barriers fuzzier and more permeable. They also fostered the development of a new middle class centered in Bangkok. Of course, globalisation likewise had some negative consequences. The biggest mistake yet was probably the free trade agreement with China (and to a lesser degree that with the US and Australia) which was ratified by the late Thaksin administration in 2004 due to Thaksin's pushing. Especially the China free trade agreement has hurt farmers in an unprecedented way.

Overall, globalisation was good for Thailand, but ruthless politicians like Thaksin have unfortunately gambled away some of the advantage in exchange for personal gain, i.e. international business interests of the oligarchs (such as Thaksin).

Cheers, Thomas
I see what you're saying Thomas but the same could be said of perceptions in most every country although the time lines and cultural perceptions are all particular to each country and region. For instance in the USA most people in the working class consider themselves middle class whereas the elite classes are under no such illusion. The trend most prominent in the last century of rural migration to the cities and the growth of the middle class is now slowing. Now and for the foreseeable future the middle class is actually in decline while the numbers of working class poor, both rural and urban, is rapidly growing and this is much less visible due to the lingering presence of the middle class. Still it is something betrayed by statistics as occurring on a global scale as the wealthy continue to consolidate their positions and slowly marginalize and impoverish the middle classes. I don't think we are seeing a real shift in middle class attitudes in any country yet as they still feel somewhat secure in their status but as middle classes continue to experience growing stress I expect they will be more inclined to side with the working class poor and perhaps then a more realistic politics will eventually emerge from the social instability which will very likely precede it for some time still to come.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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gavesako
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Re: thailand political situation

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There are some Buddhist monastics with a broad knowledge of social structures in today's world and are able to suggest new interpretations of Buddhist principles to be relevant to such changed conditions. One of them is the Thai monk P.A. Payutto who has written quite a lot on these subjects (e.g. Buddhist Economics).

Also see this video series by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

Towards a Postmodern Model of Buddhism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDy2G3obN04" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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gavesako
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Re: thailand political situation

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More about Wat Pathum:

Army task force denies role in killing 6 at temple
Questions raised over 'skytrain special forces'

... A monk at the temple told the Bangkok Post he saw protesters shot in front of the temple and the gunfire had come from the skytrain track. He said other protesters moved the wounded into the temple.

"First aid volunteers also emerged to help injured people and they were shot," the monk said.

Military officers responsible for overseeing the temple area said they suspected several monks in the temple were red shirt supporters and helped harbour armed militants.

The monk said most of the monks at the temple came from the Northeast but he denied that they were red shirt supporters or that they had allowed armed militants to hide out in the temple.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/3 ... -at-temple" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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gavesako
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Re: thailand political situation

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Something about millenial movements in Thai history:

http://2bangkok.com/2bangkok/thaimediap ... ment.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From Rattanakosin Bicentennial, 1982 - During the long reign of King Chulalongkorn, there were some disturbances to the peace of the Kingdom, such as the invasion of the Hos, a hilltribe in the North, a revolt of the Phrae; but those who were engaged in the disturbances were quickly defeated by the government authorities.

In 1901, a man, named Phi Boon, lived in Ubon Ratchathanai, a north-eastern province, declared that he was the super, no weapon could do any harm to him, and he could communicate with God and Spirits. He persuaded people and collected arms to build up forces. The government had to send the army unit to defeat them and keep the country in peace.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: thailand political situation

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A little miracle occurred yesterday. My sister in law was allowed for the first time to enter Central World again, after the shopping mall had been destroyed by the red shirts last week. The management had made an appointment with her and the other shop owners. The section of the building where my sister in law's shop is located did not burn down (miracle no 1). However, since this was the jewelry section, it was heavily damaged and looted. Most vendors found their shops destroyed; all the glass was broken, and much of the merchandise was missing. Watches, rings, and necklaces were strewn all over the floor. However, my sister in law's shop was completely intact (miracle no. 2). Not only was the glass unbroken, but not a single item was missing. It was the only jewelry shop that did not suffer any damage; even the manager could not explain it. My sister in law now believes that Luang Pu Du, whose amulet and image was installed at her shop, helped protecting it. And since this is the stuff of legends in Thailand, Luang Pu Du suddenly became very popular and all the other vendors wanted amulets as well.

Cheers, Thomas
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Re: thailand political situation

Post by nathan »

gavesako wrote:There are some Buddhist monastics with a broad knowledge of social structures in today's world and are able to suggest new interpretations of Buddhist principles to be relevant to such changed conditions. One of them is the Thai monk P.A. Payutto who has written quite a lot on these subjects (e.g. Buddhist Economics).

Also see this video series by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

Towards a Postmodern Model of Buddhism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDy2G3obN04" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you Ven. Gavesako, this is noteworthy and I am sure there are some monks with this kind of learning and understanding. Unfortunately my internet connection is too primitive for viewing anything but text but if and when it is possible I will try to view this talk.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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gavesako
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Re: thailand political situation

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Thanks for the miracle story, it shows how deep the Thai animism really runs, and how relatively shallow the Buddhist roots are...

Sanitsuda Ekachai urges all Thais to remember the 5 precepts tomorrow which is Visakha Puja:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opin ... mal-are-we" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


And here is a self-critical piece from a Thai who does not believe all the propaganda about "foreign enemies":
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opin ... thai-idiot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


...But I now believe that if we continue with this long-running charade of self-deception, Thailand is on its way to becoming a failed state shortly.

We present Thailand as the Land of Smiles full of gentle Buddhists. We regularly give alms to monks and often make donations to temples, believing that those are selfless acts for the welfare of others.

Deep down, however, we do that only because we wish to get something in return - to go to heaven or have a richer next life. It is a trade, pure and simple, nothing kind or selfless about it.

Few of us give for the sake of giving. We are basically very selfish.

Every time we go to the temple or attend a Buddhist ceremony, we duly accept and recite the Five Precepts as a guide to our daily lives, but we leave them there, as we always make promises without ever intending to keep them.

Actually, we understand little about Buddhism.

Even among the ranks of the monks, most do not know the teachings in-depth and lead their lives accordingly - all they know is how to conduct ceremonies from which they earn easy income.

This reflects something deeper - we are generally lazy and like to take short-cuts to the sabai (do-nothing) state. Lottery tickets, therefore, always sell out at premium prices; prostitution is rampant and young women readily marry foreign pensioners.

We love to talk but rarely listen. Even when we do, we often fail to hear, as we never learn to think critically.

We cannot put up with different points of view nor can we work cooperatively.

Many of the over 30,000 Buddhist temples were built next to one another because when we disagreed with one, we just built another.

That the cooperative movement has never been successful here is another indication of our inability to tolerate different points of view.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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gavesako
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Re: thailand political situation

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Jotman has now collected all the evidence about the Wat Pathum shootings here:

http://jotman.blogspot.com/2010/05/kill ... emple.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
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