TIME ITSELF

A place to discuss casual topics amongst spiritual friends.
User avatar
poto
Posts: 369
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:21 am

Re: TIME ITSELF

Post by poto »

Agent wrote:Then again there is much that does not accord to science if taken literally.
zac wrote: According to Visuddhimagga, there are several explanations for types of kalpas and their duration. In the first explanation, there are four types:

1. Ayu-Kalpa - a variable time span representing the life expectancy of a typical human being in a particular era or yuga. This can be as high as one Asankya or as small as 10 years. This number is directly proportional to the level of virtue of people in that era. Currently this value hovers around 100 years and is continually decreasing.
This is something I have a very hard time taking literally or even figuring out how it can be taken figuratively.
According to the Cakkavattisihanada Sutta, human lifespan used to be 80,000 years and has decreased over time due to humans becoming less virtuous. With what we know of evolution and archeology, this is clearly impossible. Homo sapiens have only been around 100-200 thousand years (depending on how specific you want to get in defining the species). The Buddha also speaks of many of the countless lifetimes as a Bodhisatta which are always, as far as I recall, in the context of human civilization (and a civilization remarkably similar to ancient India to boot), which has obviously been around for a much shorter time span. To take it literally the only thing I can imagine is that humans, and their civilizations, have evolved in a very similar manner over and over again in each expansion and contraction of the universe. I suppose you can't prove that's impossible, but it is astoundingly improbable. And even if that were the case, it would mean that each period of expansion would have to entail the shortening of the lifespan since we know that each phase of shortening apparently does not occur within one period of expansion (or we would have an archaeological record of it having happened in our period).
I have read that the number 80,000 was used to signify something very large, and not as an exact number.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: TIME ITSELF

Post by PeterB »

A very common literary device in Indo- Aryan writings..as in "suppose a man had 10 sons or 100 sons or 1000 sons " etc..
User avatar
Agent
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 5:14 pm
Location: Morenci, Michigan

Re: TIME ITSELF

Post by Agent »

poto wrote:I have read that the number 80,000 was used to signify something very large, and not as an exact number.
Poto, do you recall where you read that? I read something similar a while back. I think it's something to do with the limitations of the numerical system of the time. Something about the way they recorded numbers in written format I think. Although I could swear the limit was 84,000, not 80,000. I wish I could remember exactly how that worked but I don't remember where I read it.
Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā.
User avatar
dhammastudier
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 4:28 am

Re: TIME ITSELF

Post by dhammastudier »

Agent wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expec ... _over_time

It appears we about doubled our virtue just within the 20th century!
All kidding aside, at the rate we're going technology may provide us with much longer lifespans fairly soon. Let's hope we actually do have an increase in virtue to go along with that.


Zac, have you read the Aggañña Sutta? I think you would find it very interesting. The Buddha even has an explanation of what happens in between a period of contraction and expansion. Clearly this makes sense as there would presumably be a period during which beings with form couldn't exist since matter itself would not exist for some time (or would exist only in gaseous states in which life, as we know it, could not exist).
There comes a time, Vasettha, when, sooner or later after a long period, this world contracts. At a time of contraction, beings are mostly born in the Abhassara Brahma world. And there they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious--and they stay like that for a very long time. But sooner or later, after a very long period, this world begins to expand again. At a time of expansion the beings from the Abhassara Brahma world, having passed away from there, are mostly reborn in this world. Here they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious--and they stay like that for a very long time.

At that period, Vasettha, there was just one mass of water, and all was darkness, blinding darkness. Neither moon nor sun appeared, no constellations or stars appeared, night and day were not distinguished, nor months and fortnights, no years or seasons, and no male and female, beings being reckoning just as beings. And sooner or later, after a very long period of time, savory earth spread itself over the waters where those beings were. It looked just like the skin that forms itself over hot milk as it cools. It was endowed with color, smell and taste. It was the color of fine ghee or butter, and it was very sweet, like pure wild honey.

edit: Actually I think I referred to that sutta in your other thread so you probably have read it. Oh well, still interesting in this context nonetheless. I think you would like the Digha Nikaya in general since there's a lot of religious and "scientific" discussions and stories. However, trust me, this really can lead to a lot of speculative thought. And, as Guy pointed out above, speculation is not necessarily conducive to Nibbana.
no i hadn't read that. very interesting to think beyond a solid existence! yeah i have the digha nikaya and SN and MN and i'm starting with the SN. i did read the part in the DN where he talks about places where the suns light doesn't reach. i found it interesting that he says these are spaces between planets. essentially it sounds like he's talking about deep space where there are no planets and it is very dark. cool stuff.
User avatar
dhammastudier
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 4:28 am

Re: TIME ITSELF

Post by dhammastudier »

one thing i've found very interesting is toying with the idea that our estimations of the age of the earth are waaaaaaay off and that the earth has been around for trillions of years and that every few billion years lava covers most of the earth killing all but a few thousand people. these people would be forced to live like cave men and reading and writing could very well be lost and therefore there would be no record of the past technological advances. the lava would cover all but the highest places on the earth and so it would melt all evidence of past civilization. then there would be a bunch of cave men and few animals and the earth would struggle back to it's former glory and when people started recording things again they would think this was the first time. or if that doesn't work for you because there could still be evidence left in the high places then maybe the lava devours EVERYTHING and the earth is essentially rebooted.

i mean really saying how old the earth is is based on carbon dating which could easily be flawed so technically this is feasible. most of our theories on space and the earth are based on facts that are more "no one has a better idea" than on concrete fact. pangea for example was an "idea" when i was growing up and in today's textbooks it's a "fact" if someone comes up with evidence against it or a better theory then that will be "fact" until it's proven wrong (that is if it is wrong). whereas the two gases that make water when added together are never going to be proven wrong because it can be demonstrated in a lab as opposed to explained by using a bunch of theories about the earths history that themselves are based on even more theories! things like miles per hour to time it takes to get somewhere or how much heat it takes to make a hot air balloon rise are easily demonstrated and not going to change but the methods we use to prove what distant things in space are made out of or their age could easily go out of style with new technological advances allowing us more accurate study results.
User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: TIME ITSELF

Post by jcsuperstar »

one thing i found interesting in my Alaska studies class is that in Alaska native myths people originate here, they didn't walk here they originated here, came out of a clam shell or fell from the sky etc. which means even thousands of years ago they had forgotten their migration and reinvented their evolution. also look at the indus vally, we dont know much about them either, and they sat right in the center of the world...its not hard to see how people could easily forget the past
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
User avatar
dhammastudier
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 4:28 am

Re: TIME ITSELF

Post by dhammastudier »

jcsuperstar wrote:one thing i found interesting in my Alaska studies class is that in Alaska native myths people originate here, they didn't walk here they originated here, came out of a clam shell or fell from the sky etc. which means even thousands of years ago they had forgotten their migration and reinvented their evolution. also look at the indus vally, we dont know much about them either, and they sat right in the center of the world...its not hard to see how people could easily forget the past
good point! i didn't know that either that's really interesting.
User avatar
poto
Posts: 369
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:21 am

Re: TIME ITSELF

Post by poto »

Agent wrote:
poto wrote:I have read that the number 80,000 was used to signify something very large, and not as an exact number.
Poto, do you recall where you read that? I read something similar a while back. I think it's something to do with the limitations of the numerical system of the time. Something about the way they recorded numbers in written format I think. Although I could swear the limit was 84,000, not 80,000. I wish I could remember exactly how that worked but I don't remember where I read it.
Sorry, I can't recall where I read that. I tried to do some searching, but was unable to find it.

The only 84,000 number that I am aware of off hand is the 84,000 teachings, 82,000 of which came from the Buddha and another 2,000 from the Arahants.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
User avatar
Agent
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 5:14 pm
Location: Morenci, Michigan

Re: TIME ITSELF

Post by Agent »

No worries. Thanks for checking. :)
Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā.
Post Reply