Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

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Ben
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Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by Ben »

A very interesting and thought-provoking speech by influential Greens MP (member of Parliament), Adam Brandt
Part of the transcript of the speech delivered a few hours ago:
Towards the end of last year, the Karzai government passed a law which applies to the country’s minority Shi’ite population, and in particular its women. The law allows police to enforce language that sets out a wife's sexual duties and restricts a woman’s right leave her own home. According to US reports, child custody rights still go to fathers and grandfathers, women have to ask before they get married for permission to work and a husband is still able to deny his wife food and shelter if she does not meet his sexual needs. And the government that passed this law last year, Mr Speaker, is a government we are told that our soldiers should kill and die for.

For the rest: http://adam-bandt.greensmps.org.au/cont ... er-20-2010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm interested in your thoughts.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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tiltbillings
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by tiltbillings »

Sometimes this come to mind:

>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by tiltbillings »

And the government that passed this law last year, Mr Speaker, is a government we are told that our soldiers should kill and die for.
It is a ghastly situation. Had the War Criminal Bush not taken his eye off the ball by invading Iraq, we would probably have gotten out of Afganistan sometime ago. There is no way that things are going to end well now.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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BlackBird
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by BlackBird »

Karzai is just another in a long string of corrupt dictators the United States plonks on the throne when they invade a country. Afganistan: Vietnam the sequel. Going into the middle east to secure a bit of oil was like trying to plug up an arterial bleed with a band aid.

Speaking on the law itself, it is probably a politically savvy move for Karzai's regime. The regime there may very well be seeking to align itself more with the Ultra-conservative Islamists which - Let's face it - Hold a lot of sway in the country.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Ben
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote:
And the government that passed this law last year, Mr Speaker, is a government we are told that our soldiers should kill and die for.
It is a ghastly situation. Had the War Criminal Bush not taken his eye off the ball by invading Iraq, we would probably have gotten out of Afganistan sometime ago. There is no way that things are going to end well now.
Its a gawd-awful disaster, that is for sure.

Hi Jack,
Jack wrote:Speaking on the law itself, it is probably a politically savvy move for Karzai's regime. The regime there may very well be seeking to align itself more with the Ultra-conservative Islamists which - Let's face it - Hold a lot of sway in the country.
What can I say? It is primitive and barbaric. Pity about the women and children.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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appicchato
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by appicchato »

There is no way that things are going to end well now.
Ain't that the truth...but then, what does?...
Individual
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by Individual »

I feel like the U.S. was justified in invading Afghanistan -- which doesn't have any significant oil, by the way -- because they were harboring Bin Laden, refused to give him up, and were a major base for terrorism. We destroyed their bases and made them flee.

However, we certainly failed in foreign policy. Soldiers in Afghanistan no longer serve any purpose other than to simply legitimize the Karzai regime and Bin Laden moved to Pakistan. Much of American violence only acts as a rallying cry for radical Muslims.

It doesn't seem like an easy solution is in sight, because neither good diplomacy nor war would address the problem.
The best things in life aren't things.

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cooran
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by cooran »

Individual wrote:I feel like the U.S. was justified in invading Afghanistan -- which doesn't have any significant oil, by the way -- because they were harboring Bin Laden, refused to give him up, and were a major base for terrorism. We destroyed their bases and made them flee.

However, we certainly failed in foreign policy. Soldiers in Afghanistan no longer serve any purpose other than to simply legitimize the Karzai regime and Bin Laden moved to Pakistan. Much of American violence only acts as a rallying cry for radical Muslims.

It doesn't seem like an easy solution is in sight, because neither good diplomacy nor war would address the problem.
Hello individual,

It's all about controllling resources ........

''As the war in Afghanistan unfolds, there is frantic diplomatic activity to ensure that any post-Taliban government will be both democratic and pro-West. Hidden in this explosive geo-political equation is the sensitive issue of securing control and export of the region's vast oil and gas reserves. The Soviets estimated Afghanistan's proven and probable natural gas reserves at 5 trillion cubic feet - enough for the United Kingdom's requirement for two years - but this remains largely untapped because of the country's civil war and poor pipeline infrastructure.
More importantly, according to the U.S. government, "Afghanistan's significance from an energy standpoint stems from its geographical position as a potential transit route for oil and natural gas exports from central Asia to the Arabian Sea."
To the north of Afghanistan lies the Caspian and central Asian region, one of the world's last great frontiers for the oil industry due to its tremendous untapped reserves. The U.S. government believes that total oil reserves could be 270 billion barrels. Total gas reserves could be 576 trillion cubic feet.''
http://www.rethinkingschools.org/specia ... h162.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Individual
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by Individual »

cooran wrote:
Individual wrote:I feel like the U.S. was justified in invading Afghanistan -- which doesn't have any significant oil, by the way -- because they were harboring Bin Laden, refused to give him up, and were a major base for terrorism. We destroyed their bases and made them flee.

However, we certainly failed in foreign policy. Soldiers in Afghanistan no longer serve any purpose other than to simply legitimize the Karzai regime and Bin Laden moved to Pakistan. Much of American violence only acts as a rallying cry for radical Muslims.

It doesn't seem like an easy solution is in sight, because neither good diplomacy nor war would address the problem.
Hello individual,

It's all about controllling resources ........

''As the war in Afghanistan unfolds, there is frantic diplomatic activity to ensure that any post-Taliban government will be both democratic and pro-West. Hidden in this explosive geo-political equation is the sensitive issue of securing control and export of the region's vast oil and gas reserves. The Soviets estimated Afghanistan's proven and probable natural gas reserves at 5 trillion cubic feet - enough for the United Kingdom's requirement for two years - but this remains largely untapped because of the country's civil war and poor pipeline infrastructure.
More importantly, according to the U.S. government, "Afghanistan's significance from an energy standpoint stems from its geographical position as a potential transit route for oil and natural gas exports from central Asia to the Arabian Sea."
To the north of Afghanistan lies the Caspian and central Asian region, one of the world's last great frontiers for the oil industry due to its tremendous untapped reserves. The U.S. government believes that total oil reserves could be 270 billion barrels. Total gas reserves could be 576 trillion cubic feet.''
http://www.rethinkingschools.org/specia ... h162.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
This is a conspiracy theory. You can argue that any point on the planet earth is a strategic position as a potential transit route for oil.

I could talk a lot about this... For instance, why aren't we going to war with Russia over the north pole?

Also, oil is scarce. It seems obvious to a lot of people that we will eventually transition away from it, to a different energy source.

Thirdly, America is a market economy, not a feudalist monarchy which establishes colonies, where the local resources are exploited to send back to the homeland. The American government has invested a lot in the Afghani and Iraqi economies, in order to promote stability. And if American companies ever do gain access to natural resources of Afghanistan or Iraq, it will only be through local law, respect for the property rights of the citizens, and open competition.

Here's one example on that last point:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37577656/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chinese firms largely benefited from oil contracts -- Chinese firms which did not fund the war or have any part in it.

But perhaps it's more devious? Bush is no longer in office and we're still in Afghanistan and Iraq. Who is running this plan? Some kind of secret "New World Order" behind the scenes? Are Bush, Obama, and these Chinese oil companies all part of some kind of Illuminati?

And also, if maintaining our supply of oil was so important, why did the U.S. government allow so much of it to flow into the Gulf, with the BP scandal? You mean to tell me they will spend money to invade countries to procure oil, but they won't spend money to close a leak?
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BlackBird
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by BlackBird »

I don't think the Bush administration we're so concerned about where the oil went Individual, just that the supplies were secure. Global oil demand isn't flexible at all, and it's fears of supply crunch and the huge impacts that would have on Wall Street and global financial institutions that the USA & IEA are so intent on avoiding.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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tiltbillings
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by tiltbillings »

BlackBird wrote:I don't think the Bush administration we're so concerned about where the oil went Individual, just that the supplies were secure. Global oil demand isn't flexible at all, and it's fears of supply crunch and the huge impacts that would have on Wall Street and global financial institutions that the USA & IEA are so intent on avoiding.
That was what was behind, in good part, the unwarranted invasion of Iraq, but not Afghanistan.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by alan »

Imagine how much better off we'd all be today if President Gore had not been the victim of a stolen election.
Individual
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by Individual »

tiltbillings wrote:
BlackBird wrote:I don't think the Bush administration we're so concerned about where the oil went Individual, just that the supplies were secure. Global oil demand isn't flexible at all, and it's fears of supply crunch and the huge impacts that would have on Wall Street and global financial institutions that the USA & IEA are so intent on avoiding.
That was what was behind, in good part, the unwarranted invasion of Iraq, but not Afghanistan.
I agree partially with both of you, but to make a distinction: Invading Iraq wasn't about procuring oil at all.

It was about:
-Legitimate paranoia regarding Saddam Hussein having WMDs (nobody else can fault them, because at the time even most liberals bought into the Bush administrations' claims about WMDs -- internal documents leaked I've seen show that they knew it was possible Saddam might not have WMDs and were basically jut guessing that he did, while lying to the public)
-Driving up the price of oil

On the second point, the Bush family is definitely well-connected with oil companies and the Bushes and Cheney all outrageously had stocks in oil companies at the time of the invasion.

Procuring more oil only helps the oil company that gets a contract. And it's not easy to get oil out of Iraq because you have to deal with the local government and terrorists sabotaging your facilities.
alan wrote:Imagine how much better off we'd all be today if President Gore had not been the victim of a stolen election.
Would it really be so different?

How was Clinton foreign policy so different from Bush's? He accidentally killed those civilians with that missile strike in that drug factory in Sudan. And he invaded Kosovo. And he claimed Hussein had WMDs. Would Gore really have been so different from Clinton?

I like Gore than I like Bush, but he's no Obama. And even Obama often comes off as a politician, trying to please everybody and say what people want to hear instead of doing what's right.
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by tiltbillings »

Individual wrote:-Legitimate paranoia regarding Saddam Hussein having WMDs (nobody else can fault them, because at the time even most liberals bought into the Bush administrations' claims about WMDs -- internal documents leaked I've seen show that they knew it was possible Saddam might not have WMDs and were basically jut guessing that he did, while lying to the public)
WMDs were a ruse for invading Iraq. The Bushies would not let the UN team finish their investigation for the WMDs in Iraq, because they were not finding any. The invasion of Iraq was a Neo-Con/Bushie agenda before 9/11, having to do with the spread of "democracy" and nation building in terms the Neo-Com see as friendly to their world view. Of course the execution of that war was stupid, ill-planned leading to the hell that followed.
-Driving up the price of oil
Supposedly the oil revenues of Iraq were supposed to pay for the war.
How was Clinton foreign policy so different from Bush's? He accidentally killed those civilians with that missile strike in that drug factory in Sudan. And he invaded Kosovo. And he claimed Hussein had WMDs. Would Gore really have been so different from Clinton?
Saddam did, at one time, have WMDs - gas - which was used at against the Kurds, and as to the other Clinton actions, they were a great deal less egregious than that of Bush, especially in terms of lives lost and damaged and money wasted. Gore was/is not Bush.
. . . Obama . . . .
Is a disappointment, but infinitely better than the frightening psychosis of the Right that is presently threatening American politics.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
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Re: Afghanistan debate in Australia's Parliament

Post by alan »

I wasn't aware that Clinton invaded Kosovo.
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