What grows to a lie?

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Hanzze
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What grows to a lie?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:28 am

Dear Friends,

All starts with a lie, if we stop lying, we would be there.

What about expressions which are growing into a lie. For example: You tell somebody something, which is the true, but it is retold in a wrong way. What would be the karmic effect on the one who told it first.

Does his action ends as long as it is retold?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Hanzze
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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:36 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:50 am

Hanzze wrote:Dear Moderators,

So it is not a worthy for a general Theravada discussion? The precept of abstain from lying maintains almost everything, there would be no harming and no suffering without a lie.
There was not a thing in the OP to indicate that you were talking about doctrinal issues. It looks like you were simply posing a general question. It has not a thing to do about being "worthy" of being in this or that section. By the nature of the OP, this thread seemed better suited for the lounge. This thread can be moved back to the GT section, but it really needs to have an obviousl;y direct tie to Theravada doctrine rather than being a general discussion about lying. You might want keep that in mind next with the thread you initiate.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Hanzze
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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:08 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:13 am

Hanzze wrote:Could fear lead to a lie. Or is the lie the cause of fear.
You don't know? What does your experience tell you?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Hanzze
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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:52 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Annapurna » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:29 am

Hanzze wrote:Dear Friends,

All starts with a lie, if we stop lying, we would be there.

What about expressions which are growing into a lie. For example: You tell somebody something, which is the true, but it is retold in a wrong way. What would be the karmic effect on the one who told it first.

Does his action ends as long as it is retold?


You are not responsible for the actions of others.

Whether they intentionally or unintentionally distort something you say, that is entirely in their responsibility, and not in yours.

Metta :smile:
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Hanzze
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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:44 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Annapurna » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:53 pm

Dear Hanzze, this is a bit speculative, but I will try.

If you tell a lie, it is your intention and wrong speech, not anybody else's.

You inherit the kamma for your intentions and actions.

If someone else passes on your lie, not knowing it is a lie, and has good intentions, it is still your lie.

It doesn't become the other one's lie, because he does not intentionally try to deceive.

But if he knows it is a lie, and still passes it on, to help you deceive, he is an accomplice and shares into the kamma of lying.

In short: You have to know that you are lying, and you have to intend to.


Is this helpful? :smile:

With metta
Last edited by Annapurna on Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hanzze
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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:57 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Annapurna » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:59 pm

I already explained that.

Please read it again and let it sink in.

Chew the words. :smile:
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Hanzze
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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:16 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Annapurna » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:56 pm

Hanzze wrote:Dear Annapurna,

maybe I ask more direct. If you don't know yourself and tell it, is it a lie (wrong speech, flash speech).


Dear Hanzze, in my understanding it would not be a lie, according to right speech, if you think some information is a truth, and pass it on in good faith and trust. A lie requires knowledge and the intention to deceive..
But I am not a Dhamma teacher.

If you know that somebody would repeat it, without understanding himself. Would it have effects on you if you ignore it and tell him?


I am not sure what you mean with this. :thinking:
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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:12 pm

Annapurna wrote:
Hanzze wrote:Dear Annapurna,

maybe I ask more direct. If you don't know yourself and tell it, is it a lie (wrong speech, flash speech).


Dear Hanzze, in my understanding it would not be a lie, according to right speech, if you think some information is a truth, and pass it on in good faith and trust. A lie requires knowledge and the intention to deceive..
But I am not a Dhamma teacher.

If you know that somebody would repeat it, without understanding himself. Would it have effects on you if you ignore it and tell him?


I am not sure what you mean with this. :thinking:

Spot on imo.

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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:13 am

Greetings,

PeterB wrote:Spot on imo.

Ditto with all of Anna's responses to Hanzze in this topic thus far.

Hanzze, there are many suttas on Right Speech, a handful of them are presented here - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... amma-vaca/ - I am confident the suttas provide adequate guidance on the matter of Right Speech.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:27 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Kenshou » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:29 am

How 'bout, craving/aversion/delusion?

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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:48 am

Greetings Hanzze,

Hanzze wrote:It looks like it is very on the surface, the "intension" thing. But if it is ok, I would like to go a step deeper. What grows to a lie?

Actually it's very deep, because it goes beyond conventional truths about worldly matters and directly to the qualitative nature of the mindstate (i.e. kammic quality) of the speech in question. Being the kammic quality of the mindstate, it determines the mental resultant (vipaka) of action and thus the qualitative nature of experience/existence. That is what kamma/vipaka is about.

Further to your earlier discussions with Tiltbillings, I'm going to move this to the Lounge.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Hanzze
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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:58 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Hanzze
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Re: What grows to a lie?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:35 am

retrofuturist wrote:Hanzze, there are many suttas on Right Speech, a handful of them are presented here - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... amma-vaca/ - I am confident the suttas provide adequate guidance on the matter of Right Speech.

:goodpost:
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_


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