Extreme is the New Normal

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby Kim OHara » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:45 am

tiltbillings wrote:Shame on you. Do not confuse Alex with facts. If you do, however, you will get an instant replay of the same old stuff that has been shown to be wanting along with a denial that he is doing that.

I try not to write anyone off as unreachable or unteachable. Right Speech doesn't encourage it, and nor do the habits I have built up in some decades of being a teacher.
I have - politely - given Alex an opportunity to explain where he is coming from so that we can have a dialogue if he is willing. If he needs to dig into his assumptions and attitudes to answer my questions, well and good.
If I get the instant replay, I will ignore it, as promised.
Fair but firm is the idea.
:namaste:
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Shame on you. Do not confuse Alex with facts. If you do, however, you will get an instant replay of the same old stuff that has been shown to be wanting along with a denial that he is doing that.

I try not to write anyone off as unreachable or unteachable. Right Speech doesn't encourage it, and nor do the habits I have built up in some decades of being a teacher.
I have - politely - given Alex an opportunity to explain where he is coming from so that we can have a dialogue if he is willing. If he needs to dig into his assumptions and attitudes to answer my questions, well and good.
If I get the instant replay, I will ignore it, as promised.
Fair but firm is the idea.
:namaste:
Kim
Let us hope you/we get a thoughtful, considered reply from Alex that addesses the counter points carefully point by point.

(And the "shame on you" was not to be taken seriously.)
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby alan » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:03 am

Some people really are unreachable and unteachable, and it is obvious that we are dealing with that type here.
Do you remember this one? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.111.than.html


*edited for spelling, and then for general niceness.*
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby Kim OHara » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:31 am

tiltbillings wrote:Let us hope you/we get a thoughtful, considered reply from Alex that addesses the counter points carefully point by point.

Hi, Tilt,
I neither expect nor (at this point) want from Alex any arguments about points of science, just an answer to my question about his reason/s for his wholesale rejection of mainstream climate science. If we get that, we should know how to move forward.
tiltbillings wrote:(And the "shame on you" was not to be taken seriously.)

Good. :smile:
:namaste:
Kim
(edited for clarity ... I really should read things properly *before* hitting 'submit' :tongue: )
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby alan » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:42 am

Just another example of far-right lunacy and their total immersion in ideology as opposed to facts.
You can't reason with these people.
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:13 pm

Kim,

Kim O'Hara wrote:You have, in fact, been doing what I predicted: "repeating pseudo-science and ignoring the truth" which a lot of folk have been presenting to you.
I am not going to respond to any of your posts until you do answer that question - and I suggest that everyone else follows suit - because we cannot make any progress until you do.
:namaste:
Kim



I have provided many reasons why I do not believe in global warming significantly (if at all) caused by humans. I am 100% willing to change my view point on this if I encounted logical proof. You are free to post your favorite arguments in this thread, and we can discuss them.

Simply stating that what I've provided as pseudo-science is not convincing. Any one can "refute" anyone's statement by saying this same thing.


From your site, lets examine what it starts with.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate ... period.htm

Kim O'Hara' site wrote: A common skeptic argument is that climate has changed naturally in the past, long before SUVs and coal-fired power plants, so therefore humans cannot be causing global warming now. Interestingly, the peer-reviewed research into past climate change comes to the opposite conclusion. To understand this, first you have to ask why climate has changed in the past. It doesn't happen by magic. Climate changes when it’s forced to change. When our planet suffers an energy imbalance and gains or loses heat, global temperature changes.


Yes, climate changes when it is forced to changed. The big question is what causes it to change and what is insignificant to change it?

Kim O'Hara' site wrote: There are a number of different forces which can influence the Earth’s climate. When the sun gets brighter, the planet receives more energy and warms. When volcanoes erupt, they emit particles into the atmosphere which reflect sunlight, and the planet cools. When there are more greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, the planet warms. These effects are referred to as external forcings because by changing the planet's energy balance, they force climate to change.


Right. Natural causes alter the climate. Something tells me that sun produces far more powerful force than human coal burning output ever will be.

As for CO2 causing global warming, it is rebuted by some

Interestingly, CO2 lags an average of about 800 years behind the temperature changes-- confirming that CO2 is not the cause of the temperature increases. One thing is certain-- earth's climate has been warming and cooling on it's own for at least the last 400,000 years, as the data below show. At year 18,000 and counting in our current interglacial vacation from the Ice Age, we may be due-- some say overdue-- for return to another icehouse climate!http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/last_400k_yrs.html


So if CO2 production is not the cause of temperature increases, then humans producing more CO2 emissions is not to blame.


Kim O'Hara' site wrote: It is obviously true that past climate change was caused by natural forcings. However, to argue that this means we can’t cause climate change is like arguing that humans can’t start bushfires because in the past they’ve happened naturally


If past climate change was caused by natural forces, why can't it also be responsible for change today? CO2 emissions do not alter the climate, and CO2 is actually a trace gas.




Total CO2 presence in the atmosphere represents less than 4/10 of 1 percent. (CO2 is less than half of one percent of the atmosphere – If the atmosphere were a $100 dollar bill - all the CO2 in the atmosphere would equal 40 cents). http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/atmos_gases.html . Man made CO2 represents 1/20th of that amount or 2 cents out of every $100 Dollar Bill.

I asked a scientific friend to help me conceptualize this amount with an everyday example. Just how big is the total contribution of manmade CO2 to the Earth’s atmosphere? The friend couldn’t remember where he first heard this comparison, so I cannot provide a site, he didn’t want to take personal credit, but here goes; “Imagine a Farmer’s field 100 miles long and 100 miles wide. It is filled with corn. A mouse sitting in the middle of the field farts.” Ask yourself, “Will the fart affect the crop?” As much as manmade CO2 affects our global temperatures.



Though the beginning of the Cenozoic - the Paleocene - was cooler than the hottest part of the Paleozoic, it was much warmer than today. Oxygen isotope ratios show the ocean was 10° to 15° Celsius warmer than today. For Americans who know nothing of metric units, that's 18°-27° Fahrenheit warmer than now. That's hot!
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:24 pm

clw_uk wrote:
It is unfortunate that some people cannot think, and use emotional arguments instead. Global warming is a great excuse to create new taxes. Too bad.



Alex this really shows your arrogance. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are thick or are not thinking


Ever thought that they just reach different conclusions to you



CLW, I was posting many reasons why I do not believe in GW. Unfortunately most responses were like this
a) Ignore past data that shows that temperatures were much higher than today, and CO2 levels were up to 20x current levels.
b) Attack the source of the data (It is right wing propaganda!)
c) Don't actually refute the points that I've made in many posts.


I would love that those who believe in GW to post their best proofs on this thread, and I would love to discuss them. I am 100% willing to change my view if given better explanation than what I have. Please don't refer me to other websites, and whenever you can, please use your own words.

I have checked some websites, and have just posted response.


Here is another example:

Kim O Hara's site on GW states:
"a doubling of CO2 causes a warming of around 3°C."
http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate ... period.htm

Vs this that is backed by a lot of scientific research:

CO2 does not cause temperature to rise.
CO2 lags an average of about 800 years behind the temperature changes-- confirming that CO2 is not the cause of the temperature increases. One thing is certain-- earth's climate has been warming and cooling on it's own for at least the last 400,000 years, as the data below show. At year 18,000 and counting in our current interglacial vacation from the Ice Age, we may be due-- some say overdue-- for return to another icehouse climate!http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/last_400k_yrs.html


For the past two decades or more, we have heard much about the global warming of the 20th century being caused by the rise in atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration that is generally attributed to anthropogenic CO2 emissions. This story, however, has always been controversial [see Smagorinsky et al. (1982) and Idso (1982) for early pro/con positions on the issue]; and with the retrieval and preliminary analysis of the first long ice core from Vostok, Antarctica -- which provided a 150,000-year history of both surface air temperature and atmospheric CO2 concentration -- the debate became even more intense, as the close associations of the ups and downs of atmospheric CO2 and temperature that were evident during glacial terminations and inceptions in that record, as well as in subsequent records of even greater length, led many climate alarmists to claim that those observations actually proved that anthropogenic CO2 emissions were responsible for 20th-century global warming.
This contention was challenged by Idso (1989), who wrote -- in reference to the very data that were used to support the claim -- that "changes in atmospheric CO2 content never precede changes in air temperature, when going from glacial to interglacial conditions; and when going from interglacial to glacial conditions, the change in CO2 concentration actually lags the change in air temperature (Genthon et al., 1987)." Hence, he concluded that "changes in CO2 concentration cannot be claimed to be the cause of changes in air temperature, for the appropriate sequence of events (temperature change following CO2 change) is not only never present, it is actually violated in [at least] half of the record (Idso, 1988)."

How has our understanding of this issue progressed in the interim? Our website provides several updates.

Petit et al. (1999) reconstructed histories of surface air temperature and atmospheric CO2 concentration from data obtained from a Vostok ice core that covered the prior 420,000 years, determining that during glacial inception "the CO2 decrease lags the temperature decrease by several thousand years" and that "the same sequence of climate forcing operated during each termination." Likewise, working with sections of ice core records from around the times of the last three glacial terminations, Fischer et al. (1999) found that "the time lag of the rise in CO2 concentrations with respect to temperature change is on the order of 400 to 1000 years during all three glacial-interglacial transitions."

On the basis of atmospheric CO2 data obtained from the Antarctic Taylor Dome ice core and temperature data obtained from the Vostok ice core, Indermuhle et al. (2000) studied the relationship between these two parameters over the period 60,000-20,000 years BP (Before Present). One statistical test performed on the data suggested that shifts in the air's CO2 content lagged shifts in air temperature by approximately 900 years, while a second statistical test yielded a mean lag-time of 1200 years. Similarly, in a study of air temperature and CO2 data obtained from Dome Concordia, Antarctica for the period 22,000-9,000 BP -- which time interval includes the most recent glacial-to-interglacial transition -- Monnin et al. (2001) found that the start of the CO2 increase lagged the start of the temperature increase by 800 years. Then, in another study of the 420,000-year Vostok ice-core record, Mudelsee (2001) concluded that variations in atmospheric CO2 concentration lagged variations in air temperature by 1,300 to 5,000 years.

In a somewhat different type of study, Yokoyama et al. (2000) analyzed sediment facies in the tectonically stable Bonaparte Gulf of Australia to determine the timing of the initial melting phase of the last great ice age. In commenting on the results of that study, Clark and Mix (2000) note that the rapid rise in sea level caused by the melting of land-based ice that began approximately 19,000 years ago preceded the post-glacial rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration by about 3,000 years.

So what's the latest on the issue? To our knowledge, the most recent study to broach the subject is that of Caillon et al. (2003), who measured the isotopic composition of argon -- specifically, ð40Ar, which they argue "can be taken as a climate proxy, thus providing constraints about the timing of CO2 and climate change" -- in air bubbles in the Vostok ice core over the period that comprises what is called Glacial Termination III, which occurred about 240,000 years BP. The results of their tedious but meticulous analysis led them to ultimately conclude that "the CO2 increase lagged Antarctic deglacial warming by 800 ± 200 years."

This finding, in the words of Caillon et al., "confirms that CO2 is not the forcing that initially drives the climatic system during a deglaciation." Nevertheless, they and many others continue to hold to the view that the subsequent increase in atmospheric CO2 -- which is believed to be due to warming-induced CO2 outgassing from the world's oceans -- serves to amplify the warming that is caused by whatever prompts the temperature to rise in the first place. This belief, however, is founded on unproven assumptions about the strength of CO2-induced warming and is applied without any regard for biologically-induced negative climate feedbacks that may occur in response to atmospheric CO2 enrichment. Also, there is no way to objectively determine the strength of the proposed amplification from the ice core data.

In consequence of these several observations, the role of CO2 as a primary driver of climate change on earth would appear to be going, going, gone; while the CO2 warming amplification hypothesis rings mighty hollow.

Sherwood, Keith and Craig Idso

References
Caillon, N., Severinghaus, J.P., Jouzel, J., Barnola, J.-M., Kang, J. and Lipenkov, V.Y. 2003. Timing of atmospheric CO2 and Antarctic temperature changes across Termination III. Science 299: 1728-1731.

Clark, P.U. and Mix, A.C. 2000. Ice sheets by volume. Nature 406: 689-690.

Fischer, H., Wahlen, M., Smith, J., Mastroianni, D. and Deck B. 1999. Ice core records of atmospheric CO2 around the last three glacial terminations. Science 283: 1712-1714.

Genthon, C., Barnola, J.M., Raynaud, D., Lorius, C., Jouzel, J., Barkov, N.I., Korotkevich, Y.S. and Kotlyakov, V.M. 1987. Vostok ice core: Climatic response to CO2 and orbital forcing changes over the last climatic cycle. Nature 329: 414-418.

Idso, S.B. 1982. Carbon Dioxide: Friend or Foe? IBR Press, Tempe, AZ.

Idso, S.B. 1988. Carbon dioxide and climate in the Vostok ice core. Atmospheric Environment 22: 2341-2342.

Idso, S.B. 1989. Carbon Dioxide and Global Change: Earth in Transition. IBR Press, Tempe, AZ.

Indermuhle, A., Monnin, E., Stauffer, B. and Stocker, T.F. 2000. Atmospheric CO2 concentration from 60 to 20 kyr BP from the Taylor Dome ice core, Antarctica. Geophysical Research Letters 27: 735-738.

Monnin, E., Indermühle, A., Dällenbach, A., Flückiger, J, Stauffer, B., Stocker, T.F., Raynaud, D. and Barnola, J.-M. 2001. Atmospheric CO2 concentrations over the last glacial termination. Science 291: 112-114.

Mudelsee, M. 2001. The phase relations among atmospheric CO2 content, temperature and global ice volume over the past 420 ka. Quaternary Science Reviews 20: 583-589.

Petit, J.R., Jouzel, J., Raynaud, D., Barkov, N.I., Barnola, J.-M., Basile, I., Bender, M., Chappellaz, J., Davis, M., Delaygue, G., Delmotte, M., Kotlyakov, V.M., Legrand, M., Lipenkov, V.Y., Lorius, C., Pepin, L., Ritz, C., Saltzman, E., and Stievenard, M. 1999. Climate and atmospheric history of the past 420,000 years from the Vostok ice core, Antarctica. Nature 399: 429-436.

Smagorinsky, J., Bryan, K., Manabe, S., Armi, L., Bretherton, F.P., Cess, R.D., Gates, W.L, Hansen, J. and Kutzbach, J.E. (Eds.). 1982. Carbon Dioxide and Climate: A Second Assessment. National Academy Press, Washington, DC.

Yokoyama, Y., Lambeck, K., Deckker, P.D., Johnston, P. and Fifield, L.K. 2000. Timing of the Last Glacial Maximum from observed sea-level minima. Nature 406: 713-716.
http://www.co2science.org/articles/V6/N26/EDIT.php
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:55 pm

Hello Kim, all,

Kim O'Hara wrote:I have - politely - given Alex an opportunity to explain where he is coming from so that we can have a dialogue if he is willing.


I am willing to talk and to change my views.

Here are some of my sources showing that:
CO2 lags an average of about 800 years behind the temperature changes-- confirming that CO2 is not the cause of the temperature increases.



Vostok ice core: a continuous isotope temperature record over the last climatic cycle (160,00 years).

Jouzel, J., C. Lorius, J.R. Petit, C. Genthon, N.I. Barkov,
V.M. Kotlyakov, and V.M. Petrov. 1987.

Nature 329:403-8.

Extending the Vostok ice-core record of palaeoclimate to the penultimate glacial period.

Jouzel, J., N.I. Barkov, J.M. Barnola, M. Bender, J. Chappellaz, C. Genthon, V.M. Kotlyakov, V. Lipenkov, C. Lorius, J.R. Petit, D. Raynaud, G. Raisbeck, C. Ritz, T. Sowers, M. Stievenard, F. Yiou, and P. Yiou. 1993.

Nature 364:407-12.

Climatic interpretation of the recently extended Vostok ice records.

Jouzel, J., C. Waelbroeck, B. Malaize, M. Bender, J.R. Petit, M. Stievenard, N.I. Barkov, J.M. Barnola, T. King, V.M. Kotlyakov, V. Lipenkov, C. Lorius, D. Raynaud, C. Ritz, and T. Sowers. 1996.

Climate Dynamics 12:513-521.

4) Climate and atmospheric history of the past 420,000 years from the Vostok ice core, Antarctica.

Petit, J.R., J. Jouzel, D. Raynaud, N.I. Barkov, J.-M. Barnola, I. Basile, M. Bender, J. Chappellaz, M. Davis, G. Delayque, M. Delmotte, V.M. Kotlyakov, M. Legrand, V.Y. Lipenkov, C. Lorius, L. Pepin, C. Ritz, E. Saltzman, and M. Stievenard. 1999.

Nature 399: 429-436.

AND:

Caillon, N., Severinghaus, J.P., Jouzel, J., Barnola, J.-M., Kang, J. and Lipenkov, V.Y. 2003. Timing of atmospheric CO2 and Antarctic temperature changes across Termination III. Science 299: 1728-1731.

Clark, P.U. and Mix, A.C. 2000. Ice sheets by volume. Nature 406: 689-690.

Fischer, H., Wahlen, M., Smith, J., Mastroianni, D. and Deck B. 1999. Ice core records of atmospheric CO2 around the last three glacial terminations. Science 283: 1712-1714.

Genthon, C., Barnola, J.M., Raynaud, D., Lorius, C., Jouzel, J., Barkov, N.I., Korotkevich, Y.S. and Kotlyakov, V.M. 1987. Vostok ice core: Climatic response to CO2 and orbital forcing changes over the last climatic cycle. Nature 329: 414-418.

Idso, S.B. 1982. Carbon Dioxide: Friend or Foe? IBR Press, Tempe, AZ.

Idso, S.B. 1988. Carbon dioxide and climate in the Vostok ice core. Atmospheric Environment 22: 2341-2342.

Idso, S.B. 1989. Carbon Dioxide and Global Change: Earth in Transition. IBR Press, Tempe, AZ.

Indermuhle, A., Monnin, E., Stauffer, B. and Stocker, T.F. 2000. Atmospheric CO2 concentration from 60 to 20 kyr BP from the Taylor Dome ice core, Antarctica. Geophysical Research Letters 27: 735-738.

Monnin, E., Indermühle, A., Dällenbach, A., Flückiger, J, Stauffer, B., Stocker, T.F., Raynaud, D. and Barnola, J.-M. 2001. Atmospheric CO2 concentrations over the last glacial termination. Science 291: 112-114.

Mudelsee, M. 2001. The phase relations among atmospheric CO2 content, temperature and global ice volume over the past 420 ka. Quaternary Science Reviews 20: 583-589.

Petit, J.R., Jouzel, J., Raynaud, D., Barkov, N.I., Barnola, J.-M., Basile, I., Bender, M., Chappellaz, J., Davis, M., Delaygue, G., Delmotte, M., Kotlyakov, V.M., Legrand, M., Lipenkov, V.Y., Lorius, C., Pepin, L., Ritz, C., Saltzman, E., and Stievenard, M. 1999. Climate and atmospheric history of the past 420,000 years from the Vostok ice core, Antarctica. Nature 399: 429-436.

Smagorinsky, J., Bryan, K., Manabe, S., Armi, L., Bretherton, F.P., Cess, R.D., Gates, W.L, Hansen, J. and Kutzbach, J.E. (Eds.). 1982. Carbon Dioxide and Climate: A Second Assessment. National Academy Press, Washington, DC.

Yokoyama, Y., Lambeck, K., Deckker, P.D., Johnston, P. and Fifield, L.K. 2000. Timing of the Last Glacial Maximum from observed sea-level minima. Nature 406: 713-716.
http://www.co2science.org/articles/V6/N26/EDIT.php
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:00 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:Hi, everyone,
Extreme is the new Normal
Like it or not, extreme is the new normal.
And if we don’t like it, we know who to blame.




Who is to blame for great droughts in Australia in 1893 ? Today's weather isn't unique:

The historical narrative for 1893 from BoM:
3/2/1893 Lower part of Brisbane submerged, and water still on the rise; the “Elamang” and the gunboat “Paluma’ were carried by the flood into the Botanical Gardens, and the “Natone” on to the Eagle Farm flats.
4/2/1893 Disastrous floods in the Brisbane River; 8 feet of water in Edward Street at the Courier building. Numbers of houses at Ipswich and Brisbane washed down the rivers. Seven men drowned through the flooding of the Eclipse Colliery at North Ipswich. Telegraphic and railway communication in the north and west interrupted.
5/2/1893 The lndooroopilly railway bridge washed away by the flood. Heaviest floods known in Brisbane and suburbs.
6/2/1893 The lower part of South Brisbane completely submerged. The flood rose 23’9″ above the mean spring tides and 10 feet above flood mark of 1890; north end of the Victoria Bridge destroyed.
7/2/1893 Flood waters subsiding. Sydney mail train flood bound at Goodna, unable to either proceed or return.
13/2/1893 Second flood for the year in the Brisbane River.
16/2/1893 More rain in the south east districts; another rise in the Brisbane; further floods predicted.
17/2/1893 A third flood occurred in the Brisbane River for the year.
18/2/1893 The ‘Elamang” floated off from the Botanical Gardens. Business at a standstill in Brisbane. Ipswich and other towns. Several deaths by drowning reported.
19/2/1893 The gunboat “Paluma” safely floated off the Gardens, and the “Natone” off Eagle Farm flats. Another span of the lndooroopilly railway bridge carried away. The third flood reached its maximum height at 12 noon, viz. 10 inches below the first flood.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/01/14/b ... omerville/


Climate for Australia was bad in 1893 as well. 2011 is nothing new.



alan wrote:Just another example of far-right lunacy and their total immersion in ideology as opposed to facts.
You can't reason with these people.


Alan, please don't attack the person. Deal with facts such as droughts in Australia in 1893, and all the references and quotes that I've provided.


CO2 lags an average of about 800 years behind the temperature changes-- confirming that CO2 is not the cause of the temperature increases. http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/last_400k_yrs.html
+ all the references that I've given in previous posts such as
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6963&start=80#p111634
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:02 pm

Hello Cooran, and octathlon

cooran wrote:Hello all,

If you look very carefully at the graph, you will find that the baseline of the graph is 57˚F (label on the far right) and there was a point labeled 58˚F for now. They are reporting huge shifts of average global temperature which vary at most a couple tenths of degrees from year to year. The absence of normal variations that one sees in temperature charts indicates that the data must have been made up.


So you are saying that the chart is "made up"? And what does 57F baseline changes? Does it alters the fact that there was a medieval warming period>?
What about all the sources I've listed in:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6963&start=80#p111634

The source of the data for the graph is unclear. Finally, if you look up Cliff Harris and Randy Mann, you will find that they are two guys who run a website http://www.longrangeweather.com/About-Us.htm and that neither are trained as a climatologist or a metereologist, unless one considered appearing on television to report weather or studying geology to be training for such a field. Harris apparently is a conservative Christian who believes in looking in the Bible for clues on what the weather will be (Source).


Do you dismiss the data and what that data implies merely because of the person who made it? If the data is right, it doesn't matter who said it, as long as it is right.

There has been very bad extreme weather in Australia in 1893 as well. Was this due to man made CO2 pollution?


Was there a Medieval Warm Period? YES, according to data published by 920 individual scientists from 541 separate research institutions in 43 different countries ... and counting! This issue's Medieval Warm Period Record comes from Fog Lake, Baffin Island, Canada. To access the entire Medieval Warm Period Project's database, click here.
http://www.co2science.org/data/mwp/mwpp.php


Was it caused by humans driving cars? Did it cause extinction of the Human race?

Please note, that it confirms what is shown on that graph made by Cliff Harris and Randy Mann. Their medieval Warm period is supported by many (920 individual scientists from 541 separate research institutions in 43 different countries) scientists.



I (Alex) like animals, and I hope that humans treat the environment well. It would be wonderful if humans discovered a new type of clean energy source that is as efficient as gasoline, or even better.

If you want to limit "carbon" footprint (that doesn't even cause GW) don't drive cars, don't take any buses, don't fly planes, don't shop for food in the grocery store where the food was obtained by trucks emitting CO2, don't heat your house in -20 , etc. If entire human race would disappear, the short term impact of Carbon Dioxide would be almost zero - just like today. Current level of CO2 is 390ppm (three hundred and ninety). During the history of earth it was 7,000ppm (seven thousand), presumably without human's impact. Human output is nothing compared to what nature can and has done in the past. The calamities that are blamed on GW have occured prior, in 1893 Flooding of part of Australia, and other weather extremes througout the history of this planet.
I do not approve of double standard where 1893 was caused by nature, but another instance of flooding in 2010-11 is blamed on human induced pollution. The rise of CO2 (from 315 to 390) today some blame on humans, while rise from 4,500 to 7,000ppm (during Cambrian) was blamed on nature.
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby cooran » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:35 pm

Hello Alex,

Alex said: There has been very bad extreme weather in Australia in 1893 as well. Was this due to man made CO2 pollution?

Please don’t exaggerate. The 1893 flood was simply the flooding of one river, the Brisbane River, due to normal heavy rainfall from a seasonal cyclone.

Rather than the T.V. weather announcer and the Christian conservative, I prefer to go with the current position of the United Nations World Meteorological Organisation.
Also posting inaccessible long lists of books (most over ten years old) from a book bibliography isn’t really that impressive.

Karuna
Chris
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cooran
 
Posts: 7478
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Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:50 pm

Hello Cooran, and all,

cooran wrote:Rather than the T.V. weather announcer and the Christian conservative, I prefer to go with the current position of the United Nations World Meteorological Organisation.
Also posting inaccessible long lists of books (most over ten years old) from a book bibliography isn’t really that impressive.

Karuna
Chris


There are plenty of scientists, and plenty of credible research, that shows that weather today is NOT unique. If you check the historic graphs of temperature that include medieval warm periods, and other periods will show that today's temperature is quite cool to say the least.
There are 920 individual scientists from 541 separate research institutions in 43 different countries who prove that medieval warm period was a global phenomena. http://www.co2science.org/data/mwp/mwpp.php
Check the scientific institutions that say this.
http://www.co2science.org/data/mwp/institutions.php

Compared to it, 2010 was far from being the "warmest".


CO2 lags an average of about 800 years behind the temperature changes-- confirming that CO2 is not the cause of the temperature increases.


Furthermore, even IF CO2 was the cause (which it isn't), there wouldn't be much that we could do even if we instantly disappeared from the planet.


If mankind were to cease all economic production and cease buring all carbon fuels, at best, a 2% reduction in CO2 levels could be had. Additional reductions from manking would need to involve an end to “respiration” – manking would need to stop breathing. Having achieved these miniscule reductions, at fantastic cost and loss of personal freedom, nature could, in the bat of an eye, dramatically reverse any man made reduction. You see, temperature drives the CO2 level, CO2 levels do not drive temperature.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=8326 , http://www.stanford.edu/~moore/Boon_To_Man.html



====
Regarding modern times not being the warmest (as there was medieval warm time showed by my graph)


List of Research Institutions Associated With the Work We Cite
Argentina
- Departamento de Geologia, Universidad Nacional del Sur, San Juan

Australia
- Advanced Centre for Queensland University Isotope Research Excellence, University of Queensland
- Antarctic Co-operative Research Centre, University of Tasmania, Hobart
- CSIRO Sustainable Ecosystems, Canberra, ACT - Department of Geology, The Australian National University, Canberra
- Geoscience Australia, Hobart
- Institute of Antarctic and Southern Ocean Studies, University of Tasmania, Hobart
- Radiogenic Isotope Laboratory, Centre for Microscopy and Microanalysis, University of Queensland
- School of Geosciences, University of Wollongong, NSW

Austria
- Institute of Geology and Palaeontology, University of Innsbruck, Innsbruck
- Institute for High Mountain Research, Innsbruck
- Institute of Limnology, Austrian Academy of Sciences, Mondsee

Belgium
- Department of Biology, Ghent University
- Department of Biology, Section Protistology & Aquatic Ecology, Ghent University, Ghent
- Faculte Polytechnique de Mons, Mons
- International Bureau of Environmental Study, Brussels
- Universite catholique de Louvain, Louvain-la-Neuve

Brazil
- Laboratory of Coastal Dynamics, Federal University of Para´, Bele´m (Pa)

Canada
- Alberta Research Council, Calgary
- Canadian Forest Service, Edmonton, Alberta
- Centre d'Etudes Nordiques, Laboratoire de Paleoecologie Aquatique, Universite Laval, Quebec
- Department of Biological Sciences, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C.
- Department of Biological Sciences, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta
- Department of Biology, Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario
- Department of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta
- Department of Earth and Ocean Sciences, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Birtish Columbia
- Department of Fisheries and Oceans, Institute of Ocean Sciences, Sidney, British Columbia
- Department of Geography, University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario
- Department of Geology and Geophysics, The University of Calgary, Calgary, Alberta
- Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Waterloo, Waterloo
- Geological Survey of Canada, Vancouver, B.C.
- GEOTOP, Geochemistry and Geodynamics Research Center, Montreal, Quebec
- Institut National de la Recherché Scientifique, Centre Eau, Terre et Environnement, Quebec
- Laboratory for Paleoclimatology and Climatology, Department of Geography, University of Ottawa, Ottawa
- Laboratory for Paleoclimatology and Climatology, Ottawa-Carleton Institute of Biology, University of Ottawa, Ottawa
- Pacific Geoscience Center, Geological Survey of Canada, Sidney British Columbia
- Paleoecological Environmental Assessment and Research Lab (PEARL), Department of Biology, Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario
- Paleolimnology-Paleoecology Laboratory, Départment de géographie et Centre d'études nordiques, Université Laval, Québec City, Québec
- Parks Canada Fire and Vegetation Specialist, Radium Hot Springs, B.C.
- Royal British Columbia Museum, Victoria, Brotish Columbia
- School of Earth and Ocean Sciences, University of Victoria, Victoria, British Columbia

Chile
- Center for Advanced Studies in Ecology and Biodiversity, Departamento de Ecologia, Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile, Santiago
- Center for Oceanographic Research in the Eastern South Pacific, University of Concepcion, Concepcion
- Department of Geophysics, University of Concepcion, Concepcion
- Department of Oceanography, University of Concepcion, Concepcion
- Institute of Ecology and Biodiversity, Las Palmeras, Santiago
- Servicio Nacional de Geologia y Mineria, Santiago
- Universidad de Concepcion, Concepcion

China
- Administrative Center for China's Agenda 21th Century, Beijing
- Center for Arid Environment and Paleoclimate Research, Lanzhou University
- China Center of Desert Research, Beijing Normal University
- Climate Data Center of Qinghai, Qinghai Meteorological Bureau, Xining - Cold and Arid Regions Environmental and Engineering Research Institute, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Lanzhou
- College of Urban and Environmental Sciences, Northeast Normal University, Changchun
- Department of Atmospheric Sciences, Peking University, Beijing
- Department of Earth and Space Sciences, University of Science and Technology of China
- Department of Environment Engineering, School of Energy and Power Engineering of Xi'an Jiaotong University, Xi'an
- Department of Resources and Environment Sciences, Beijing Normal University, Beijing
- East China Normal University, Shanghai
- First Institute of Oceanography, Qingdao
- Geological Analysis Center, Beijing
- Graduate School of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing
- Institute of Chinese History and Geography, Fudan University, Shanghai
- Institute of Earth Environment, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Xi'an High-Tech Zone, Xi'an
- Institute of Geographic Sciences and Natural Resources Research, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing
- Institute of Geology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing
- Institute of Geology and Geophysics, Chinese Academy of Science
- Institute of Hydrologic and Environmental Geology, Chinese Academy of Geological Sciences, Zhengding
- Institute of Peatmire, Northeast Normal University, Changchun, Jilin
- Institute of Plateau Meteorology, China Meteorological Administration, Chengdu
- Institute of Resources and Environment, Beijing Normal University, Beijing
- Institute of Salty Lake, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Xining
- Institute of Tibetan Plateau Research, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing
- Key Laboratory of Geographic Information Science, East China Normal University, Shanghai
- Key Laboratory of Lake Sedimentation and Environment, Nanjing Institute of Geography and Limnology, Chinese Academy of Sciences
- Key Laboratory of Marine Geology and Environment, Institute of Oceanology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Qingdao
- Laboratory for Climate Studies, National Climate Center, China Meteorological Administration, Beijing
- Laboratory for Earth Surface Processes, College of Environmental Sciences, Peking University, Beijing
- Laboratory of Lake Sedimentation and Environment, Nanjing Institute of Geography and Limnology, Nanjing
- Laboratory of Quantitative Vegetation Ecology, Institute of Botany, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing
- Laboratory of Watershed Hydrology and Ecology, Cold and Arid Regions Environmental and Engineering Research Institute, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Lanzhou
- Lanzhou Institute of Geology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Lanzhou
- Lanzhou Institute of Glaciology and Geocryology, Chinese Academy of Sciences
- Marine Geology College, Ocean University of China, Qingdao
- MOE Key Laboratory of Western China's Environmental Systems, Lanzhou University, Lanzhou
- Nanjing Institute of Geography and Limnology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Nanjing
- School of Geographic and Oceanographic Sciences, Nanjing University, Nanjing
- School of Resources and Environmental Sciences, Lanzhou University, Gansu
- South China Sea Institute of Oceanology, Chinese Academy of Sciences
- State Key Laboratory of Cryospheric Sciences, Cold and Arid Regions Environment and Engineering Research Institute, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Lanzhou
- State Key Laboratory of Environmental Geochemistry, Institute of Geochemistry, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Guiyang, Guizhou
- State Key Laboratory of Frozen Soils Engineering, Cold and Arid Regions Environmental and Engineering Research Institute, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Lanzhou
- State Key Laboratory of Lake Science and Environment, Nanjing Institute of Geography and Limnology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Nanjing
- State Key Laboratory of Loess and Quaternary Geology, Institute of Earth Environment, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Xi'an
- State Key Laboratory of Mineral Deposit Research, Institute of Surficial Geochemistry, Department of Earth Sciences, Nanjing University
- State Key Laboratory of Vegetation and Environmental Change, Institute of Botany, Chinese Adademy of Sciences, Beijing
- Xinjiang Institute of Ecology and Geography, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Urumqi
- Yantai Institute of Coastal Zone Research for Sustainable Development, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Yantai

Czech Republic
- Geophysics Institute, Czech Academy of Science

Denmark
- AMS 14C Laboratory, Institute for Physics and Astronomy, Århus University
- Centre for Ice and Climate, Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen
- Department of Earth Sciences, University of Aarhus, Århus
- Department of Geophysics, Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen
- Geographic Institute, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen
- Geological Survey of Denmark and Greenland, Copenhagen
- Geophysical Isotope Laboratory, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen
- Natural Science Research Institute, National Museum of Denmark, Copenhagen
- The Niels Bohr Institute, Department of Geophysics, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen
- Riso National Laboratory, Roskilde

Estonia
- Institute of Geology, Tallinn University of Technology, Tallinn

Ethiopia
- Department of Earth Sciences, University of Addis Ababa, Addis Ababa

Finland
- Arctic Centre, University of Lapland, Rovaniemi
- Department of Biological and Environmental Sciences, University of Helsinki
- Department of Chemistry, University of Oulu, Oulu
- Department of Geography, University of Helsinki, Helsinki
- Department of Geophysics, University of Oulu, Oulu
- Department of Geology, University of Helsinki, Helsinki
- Department of Geology, University of Turku, Turku
- Department of Geosciences and Geography, Division of Geology, University of Helsinki, Helsinki
- Department of Mathematical Sciences, University of Oulu
- Department of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Helsinki
- Department of Quaternary Geology, University of Turku
- Department of Teacher Education, University of Joensuu, Savonlinna
- Faculty of Forest Sciences, University of Joensuu, Joensuu
- Finnish Meteorological Institute, Helsinki
- Geological Survey of Finland, Kuopio
- Mekrijarvi Research Station, University of Joensuu, Ilomantsi
- North Savo Regional Environment Centre, Kuopio
- Rovaniemi Research Unit, Finnish Forest Research Institute, Rovaniemi
- SAIMA Unit of Savonlinna Department of Teacher Education, University of Joensuu, Savonlinna
- Vantaa Research Unit, Finnish Forest Research Institute, Vantaa

France
- Centre de Bio-Archeologie et d'Ecologie, Institut de Botanique, Montpellier
- Centre Littoral de Géophysique, Université de La Rochelle
- CEREGE, BP 80, 13545 Aix-en-Provence cedex 4
- Départment de Géologie et Océanographie, Université Bordeaux, Talence
- Départment Écologie et Gestion de la Biodiversité du Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, Paris
- Départment Paléoenvironments, Institut des Sciences de l'Evolution, Université de Montpellier II, Montpellier
- Département Terre-Atmosphe`re-Oce´an and Laboratoire de Me´te´orologie Dynamique/IPSL, Ecole Normale Supe´rieure, Paris
- DIMAR, Luminy, 13288 Marseille cedex 9
- EPSHOM, Cellule sédimentologie, Brest
- Geoarchitecture & Geosciences, Universite Europeenne de Bretagne, Vannes
- Geosciences Department & Laboratoire de Meteorologie Dynamique, Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris
- Geosciences Rennes, Universite de Rennes, Rennes Cedex
- Institut des Sciences de l'Evolution de Montpellier, Equipe Paleoenvironments
- Institute of Alpine Geography, University of Grenoble, Grenoble
- Laboratoire d'Etude de Geo-Environments Marins, Universite de Perpignan
- Laboratoire de Chrono-Ecologie, Faculté des Sciences et Techniques, Besançon
- Laboratoire de Chrono-Environnement, UFR Sciences et Techniques, Universite de Franche-Comte
- Laboratoire de Glaciologie et Géophysique de l'Environment du CNRS, Saint-Martin d'Heres Cedex
- Laboratoire des Sciences du Climate et de l'Environnement, Domaine du CNRS
- Laboratoire des Sciences du Climat et de l'Environment, Unité de recherché mixte CEA/CNRS, Campus du CNRS
- Laboratoire des Sciences du Climat et de l'Environment, Gif sur Yvette
- Laboratoire EDYTEM, Universite de Savoie
- LODYC, 4 Place Jussieu, 75005 Paris
- Morphodynamique continentale et côtière, Université de Caen
- Université de Caen, Caen
- Université de Perpignan, Perpignan

Gabon
- IRSH/GREH, Centre National de Recherche Scientifique et Technique (CENAREST), Libreville
- Wildlife Conservation Society, Libreville

Germany
- Alfred Wegener Institute, Bremerhaven
- Alfred Wegener Institute for Polar and Marine Research, Research Unit Potsdam
- Bundesanstalt für Geowissenschaften und Rohstoffe (BGR), Hannover
- Centre for Environmental Research Leipzig-Halle Ltd. (UFZ), Department of Hydrogeology, Research Group of Palaeoclimatology, Halle
- Center for Marine Environmental Sciences, University of Bremen, Bremen
- Center for Tropical Marine Ecology (ZMT), Bremen
- Climate Dynamics and Landscape Evolution, Potsdam
- Department of Geography, University of Heidelberg, Heidelberg
- Department of Geosciences, University of Bremen, Bremen
- Fachbereich Geowissenschaften, Universität Bremen, Bremen
- Faculty for Physics and Geoscience, Institute for Geophysics and Geology, University of Leipzig, Leipzig
- Forschungsstelle Radiometrie, Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften, Heidelberg
- GeoConsult Rein, Oppenheim
- GeoForschungsZentrum, Potsdam
- GEOMAR Research Center for Marine Geosciences, Kiel
- German Advisory Council on Global Change
- German Research Centre for Geosciences, Potsdam
- Heidelberg Academy of Sciences, Institute of Environmental Physics, University of Heidelberg
- Heidelberg Academy of Sciences, MPI fur Kernphysik, Saupfercheckweg, Heidelberg
- Heidelberger Akademie der Wissenschaften, Heidelberg
- IFM-GEOMAR, Kiel
- Institut für Geowissenschaften, Johannes Gutenberg-Universität Mainz, Mainz
- Institut für Geowissenschaften, Universitat Kiel, Kiel
- Institute of Geological Sciences, Freie Universitat Berlin, Berlin
- Institute for Geology, Technical University for Mining and Technology, Freiberg
- Institute for Geosciences, University of Mainz, Mainz
- Institute of Geography, Stuttgart
- Institut und Museum für Geologie und Paläontologie, Universität Göttingen, Göttingen
- Leibniz Institute for Baltic Sea Research, Warnemunde
- Meteorologisches Institut, Universitat Hamburg, Hamburg
- Potsdam-Institut fur Klimafolgen-forschung, Potsdam
- Research Centre Julich, Sedimentary Systems, Julich

Hungary
- Geophysics Research Group, Hungarian Academy of Science, c/o Geophysics Department, Eötvös University, Budapest

Iceland
- Department of Geosciences, University of Iceland, Askja, Reykjavik
- Earth Science Institute, University of Iceland, Askja, Reykjavik

India
- Birbal Sahni Institute of Palaeobotany, Lucknow
- Department of Geology, Lucknow University, Lucknow
- Department of Geology and Geophysics, Indian Institute of Technology, Kharagpur
- Department of Schence and Technology, New Delhi
- Physical Research Laboratory, Navrangpura, Ahmedabad
- Wadia Institute of Himalayan Geology, Dehra Dun

Ireland
- Department of Geography, National University of Ireland, Galway
- Non-institutional

Israel
- Department of Environmental Sciences, The Weizmann Institute of Sciences, Rehovot
- Geological Survey of Israel, Jerusalem

Italy
- Consiglio Nazionale delle Ricerche, Pisa
- C.N.R. Centro di Studio per la Geodinamica Alpina e Quaternaria, Milan
- C.N.R. Centro di Studio per la Geologia Strutturale e Dinamica dell'Appennino, Pisa
- CNR - ISMAR, Istituto Scienza del Mare, Bologna
- CNR - Istituto per lo Studio degli Ecosistemi, Verbania Pallanza
- Department of Chemistry, University of Florence, Florence
- Dipartimento di Fisica Generale-Universita, Torino
- Dipartimento di Scienze dell'Ambiente e del Territorio, Universita de Milano, Milano
- Dipartimento di Scienze della Terra, Istituto di Geoscienze e Georisorse, Universita di Pisa
- Dipartimento di Scienze Geologiche, Ambientali e Marine, Universita di Trieste, Trieste
- Dipartimento di Scienze Geologiche e Geotecnologie, Universita di Milano-Bicocca, Milan
- Dipartimento Scienze della Terra, Universita di Bologna, Bologna
- ENEA C.R. Casaccia, Santa Maria di Galeria, Rome
- European Commission-DG Joint Research Centre, Institute for the Protection and Security of the Citizen, Ispra
- Instituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario, Torino
- Museo Tridentino di Scienze Naturali, Trento

Japan
- Aso Volcanological Laboratory, Institute for Geothermal Sciences, Kyoto University, Kumamoto
- Center for Advanced Marine Core Research, Kochi University, Nankoku, Kochi
- Center for Chronological Research, Nagoya University, Nagoya
- Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences, Graduate School of Science, Nagoya University, Nagoya
- Department of Earth System Science, Faculty of Science, Fukuoka University, Fukuoka
- Department of Environmental Sciences, Shinshu University, Matsumoto
- Department of Geography, Tokyo Metropolitan University, Hachioji - Department of Geology, Kanazawa University, Kanazawa
- Department of Geology and Paleontology, National Museum of Nature and Science, Tokyo
- Earthquake Research Institute, University of Tokyo, Tokyo
- Environmental Chemistry Division, National Institute for Environmental Studies, Tsukuba, Ibaraki
- Faculty of Environmental Earth Science, Hokkaido University, Sapporo
- Forestry and Forest Products Research Institute, Ibaraki
- Forestry and Forest Products Research Institute, Kyushu Research Center, Kumamoto
- Forestry and Forest Products Research Institute, Tohoku Research Center, Morioka
- Geological Survey of Japan, Tsukuba
- Graduate School of Environmental Earth Science, Hokkaido University, Sappora
- Graduate School of Environmental Studies, Nagoya University, Nagoya
- Graduate School of Life and Environmental Sciences, Osaka Prefecture University, Osaka
- IGG, Geological Survey of Japan, AIST, Tsukuba
- International Research Center for Japanese Studies, Kyoto
- Institute for Global Environmental Strategies, Hayama, Kanagawa
- Institute for Hydrospheric-Atmospheric Sciences, Nagoya University, Nagoya
- Meteorological Research Institute, Japan Meteorological Agency, Tsukuba
- National Institute of Polar Research, Itabashi-ku, Tokyo
- Ocean Research Institute, University of Tokyo, Tokyo

Kenya
- Department of Geology, Chiromo Campus, University of Nairobi, Nairobi

Korea
- Department of Marine Science, Pusan National University
- Department of Science Education, Chungbuk National University, Chongju, Chungbuk-do
- Geological and Environmental Hazards Division, Korea Institute of Geoscience and Mineral Resources, Yuseong-gu, Daejeon
- Marine Environmental & Climate Change Laboratory, Korea Ocean Research and Development Institute
- Polar Sciences Laboratory, Korea Ocean Research and Development Institute

Lithuania
- Coastal Research and Planning Institute, Klaipeda University, Klaipeda
- Institute of Geology and Geography, Vilnius
- The Institute of Baltic Region History and Archaeology, Klaipeda University, Klaipeda

Mexico
- Departamento do Ecologia y Recursos Naturales, Facultad de Ciencias, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
- Departamento de Ecologia y Recursos Naturales-IMECBIO, Centro Universitario de la Costa Sur, Universidad de Guadalajara, Jalisco
- El Colegio De La Frontera Sur, Herbario, Chetumal, Quintana Roo
- Laboratorio de Paleomagnetismo y Paleoambientes, Instituto de Geofisica, Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico, Ciudad Universitaria, Coyoacan
- Universidad Michoacana de San Nicolas de Hidalgo, Francisco J. Mujica S/N, Ciudad Universitaria, Edifico R. Morelia, Michoacan

Nepal
- Department of Geology, Tribhuvan University, Kathmandu

Netherlands
- Department of Marine Biogeology, Faculty of Earth and Life Sciences, VU University of Amsterdam, De Boelelaan, Amsterdam
- Department of Marine Geology, Royal Netherlands Institute for Sea Research, Texel
- Institute for Biodiversity and Ecosystem Dynamics (IBED), Paleoecology and Landscape Ecology, University of Amsterdam
- Institute for Biodiversity and Ecosystem Dynamics, University of Amsterdam
- Laboratory of Palaeobotany and Palynology, Institute of Environmental Biology, Utrecht University, Utrecht
- Palaeoecology, Institute of Environmental Biology, Faculty of Science, Utrecht University, Utrecht

New Zealand
- Chemistry Department, University of Waikato, Hamilton
- Gondwana Tree-ring Laboratory, Little River
- Manaaki Whenua Landcare Research, Palmerston North
- National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research Ltd.
- School of Geography, Geology and Environmental Science, University of Auckland, Auckland
- Wildlands Consultants Ltd.

Norway
- Botanical Institute, University of Bergen
- Bjerknes Centre for Climate Research, University of Bergen
- Department of Biology, University of Bergen, Bergen
- Department of Earth Science, University of Bergen
- Department of Geography, University of Bergen
- Department of Geology, University of Oslo, Olso
- Department of Geology, University of Tromsø, Tromsø
- Geological Institute, University of Bergen, Allégaten, Bergen
- Geological Survey of Norway, Trondheim
- Nansen Environmental and Remote Sensing Center, Bergen
- Norwegian Fishery College, University of Tromso, Tromso
- Norwegian Polar Institute, Polar Environmental Centre, Tromsø
- Norwegian University of Technology and Science, Trondheim
- SINTEF Fisheries and Aquaculture, Trondheim
- University Centre in Svalbard, Longyearbyen

Poland
- Department of Palaeoceanology, University of Szczecin, Szczecin
- Institute of Geological Sciences, Polish Academy of Sciences, Warsaw

Portugal
- Departamento de Geologia Marinha, INETInovação, Estrada da Portela - Zambujal, Amadora
- Department of Geoscience, University of Azores
- Instituto Nacional de Investigação Agrária e das Pescas (INIAP), Lisboa
- Marine Geology Department, National Institute of Engineering, Technology and Innovation-INETI, Alfragide

Russia
- A.N. Severtsov Institute of Ecology and Evolution, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow
- Cosmic Ray Laboratory, A.F. Ioffe Physico-Technical Institute, St. Petersburg
- Dynamical-Stochastical Laboratory, Hydrometeorological Research Centre of Russia, Moscow
- Geophysics and Mineralogy, United Institute of Geology, Novosibirsk
- Institute of Archaeology, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow
- Institute of Geography, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow
- Institute of Geology, URS Russian Academy of Sciences, Ufa
- Institute of Geophysics, UB Russian Academy of Sciences, Ekaterinburg
- Institute of Plant and Animal Ecology, Ural Branch, Russian Academy of Sciences, Ekaterinburg
- Limnological Institute, Irkutsk
- Moscow State University, Moscow
- Shirshov Institute of Oceanography, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow
- Sukachev Institute of Forest, Siberian Division, Russian Academy of Sciences, Akademgorodok, Krasnoyarsk
- Trofimuk United Institute of Geology, Geophysics and Mineralogy, Novosibirsk
- West-Siberian Center of Monitoring on Environment Pollution, Novosibirsk

South Africa
- Archaeology Department, University of the Witwatersrand
- Climatology Research Group, University of the Witwatersrand
- Dating Research Unit, CSIR, Pretoria
- Department of Archaeology, University of Cape Town
- Department of Plant Sciences, University of the Free State
- Quaternary Dating Research Unit, CSIR
- School of Geosciences, University of the Witwatersrand

Spain
- Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Ceintificas, Centro de Ciencias Medioambientales, Madrid
- CSIC_UB Limnology Group, Centre for Advanced Studies of Blanes, Blanes
- Departament de Biologia Animal, Vegetal, i Ecologia, Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona, Barcelona
- Departamento de Edafologia y Quimica Agricola, Santiago de Compostela
- Department of Environmental Chemistry, Institute of Chemical and Environmental Research (CSIC), Barcelona
- Department of Geology, University of Alcala, Madrid
- Department of Prehistory, Ancient History and Archaeology, University of Barcelona, Barcelona
- Department of Stratigraphy, University Complutense of Madrid, Madrid
- Direccion de Geologia y Geofisica, Instituto Geologico y Minero de Espana, Madrid
- Direccion de Recursos Minerales y Geoambiente, Instituto Geologico y Minero de Espana, Madrid
- Institute of Earth Sciences Jaume Almera, Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Cientificas, Barcelona
- Instituto Pirenaico de Ecologia (C.S.I.C.), Zaragoza

Sweden
- Angstrom Laboratory, Division of Ion Physics, Uppsala
- Climate Impact Research Centre, Umed University, Abisko
- Department of Earth Sciences-Marine Geology, Goteborg University, Goteborg
- Department of Earth Sciences, Uppsala University, Uppsala
- Department of Earth Sciences, Palaeobiology Program, Uppsala University
- Department of Ecology and Environmental Science, Umea University, Umea
- Department of Geology and Geochemistry, Stockholm University, Stockholm
- Department of Meteorology, Stockholm University, Stockholm
- Department of Natural Sciences, Mid Sweden University, Sundsvall
- Department of Oceanography, Earth Sciences Centre, Goteborg University, Goteborg
- Department of Physical Geography, Stockholm University
- Department of Physical Geography, Umea University, Umea
- Department of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University
- Department of Quaternary Geology, Lund University, Lund
- Department of Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University
- Department of Quaternary Research, Stockholm University, Stockholm
- Earth Sciences Center, Göteborg University
- GeoBiosphere Science Centre, Quaternary Sciences, Lund University, Solveg

Switzerland
- Department of Geography, University of Berne, Bern
- Department of Geography, University of Zurich-Irchel, Zurich
- EAWAG, Duebendorf
- Eidgenossische Technische Hochschule, Geologisches Institut, Zurich
- Geological Institute, University of Bern
- Institut de Mineralogie et Petrographie, Lausanne
- Institute of Geography, University of Lausanne, Lausanne
- Institute of Particle Physics, ETH-Hoenggerberg, Zurich
- Institute of Plant Sciences, University of Bern, Bern
- Limnoceane, Institut de Geologie, Neuchatel
- National Centre of Competence in Research on Climate, Bern
- Natural History Museum of the Canton Ticino, Lugano
- NCCR Climate, University of Bern, Bern
- Oeschger Centre for Climate Change Research, University of Bern, Bern
- Institut fur Geologie, Isotopengeologie, Universitat Bern, Berne
- Institute of Geography, University of Bern, Bern
- Paul Scherrer Institut, Laboratory of Atmospheric Chemistry
- Swiss Federal Research Institute, Dendro Sciences Unit, Birmensdorf
- Swiss Federal Research Institute for Forest, Snow and Landscape Research, Birmensdorf

Taiwan
- Biodiversity Research Center, Academia Sinica, Nankang, Taipei
- Department of Life Sciences, National Taiwan University, Taipei
- Institute of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, National Taiwan University, Taipei
- Research Center for Environmental Change, Academia Sinica, Nankang, Taipei

United Kingdom
- British Antarctic Survey, Natural Environment Research Council (NERC)
- Centre for Environmental Change and Quaternary Research, GEMRU, University of Gloucestershire, Cheltenham
- Centre for Environmental Research, University of Sussex, Brighton
- Centre for Quaternary Science, Coventry University, Coventry
- Climatic Research Unit, School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich
- Department of Entomology, Natural History Museum, London
- Department of Geography, Durham University, Durham
- Department of Geography, University College London
- Department of Geography, University of Exeter, Exeter
- Department of Geography, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne
- Department of Geography, University of Southampton, Highfield, Southampton
- Department of Geography, University of Wales, Swansea
- Department of Mathematical Sciences, University of Liverpool, Liverpool
- Department of Mathematics and Information Science, Coventry University, Coventry
- Environmental Archaeology Unit, University of York
- Environmental Change Research Centre, University College London, London
- Institute of Geography, School of Geosciences, University of Edinburgh, Edinburgh
- Institute of Geography and Earth Sciences, University of Wales, Aberystwyth
- Long-term Ecology Laboratory, Oxford University Centre for the Environment, School of Geography, South Parks Road, Oxford
- NERC Isotope Geosciences Laboratory, British Geological Survey, Nottingham
- Palaeoecology Laboratory, Department of Geography, University of Southampton, Southampton
- Petroleum and Environmental Geochemistry Group, University of Plymouth, Drake Circus, Plymouth
- School of Biological and Biomedical Sciences, University of Durham, Durham
- School of Earth, Ocean and Environmental Sciences, University of Plymouth, Drake Circus, Plymouth
- School of Geography, Archaeology and Palaeoecology, Queen's University, Belfast, Northern Ireland
- School of Geography, University of Nottingham, Nottingham
- School of Geography and Geosciences, University of St. Andrews, St. Andrews
- School of Geography and the Environment, University of Oxford, Oxford
- School of GeoSciences, Grant Institute, Edinburgh University, Edinburgh
- School of GeoSciences, University of Edinburgh, Edinburgh
- Scott Polar Research Centre, Cambridge University, Cambridge
- The Godwin Laboratory, Department of Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge, Cambridge
- York Archaeological Trust for Excavation and Research, Aldwark, York

United States
- Atmospheric Sciences Research Center, State University of New York, Albany, NY
- Big Sky Institute, Montana State University, Bozeman, MT
- Biodiversity Research Center and Natural History Museum, University of Kansas, Lawrence, KS
- Byrd Polar Research Center, Ohio State University, Columbus, OH
- Center for Accelerator Mass Spectrometry, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories, Livermore, CA
- Center for Climatic Research, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI
- Center for Environmental Sciences and Quaternary Sciences Program, Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff, AZ
- Center for Isotope Geochemistry, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, CA
- Center for Materials Research and Education, Smithsonian Institution, Suitland, MD
- Center for Sustainability and the Global Environment, Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies, University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, WI
- Climate Change Institute, University of Maine, Orono, ME
- Climate Change Research Center, University of New Hampshire, Durham, NH
- Climate System Research Center, Department of Geosciences, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA
- Coastal and Marine Geology, U.S. Geological Survey, Menlo Park, CA
- College of Forest Resources, University of Washington, Seattle, WA
- College of Marine Science, University of South Florida, St. Petersburg, FL
- College of Oceanic and Atmospheric Sciences, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR
- Department of Anthropology, University of California at San Diego, La Jolla, California
- Department of Anthropology, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI
- Department of Anthropology, Washington State University, WA
- Department of Anthropology, Western State College, Gunnison, CO
- Department of Atmospheric and Environmental Sciences, University at Albany-State University of New York, Albany, NY
- Department of Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences, University of California, Los Angeles, CA
- Department of Biological Sciences, University of Alaska, Anchorage, AK
- Department of Biological Sciences, University of North Carolina, NC
- Department of Biology, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO
- Department of Biology, Middlebury College, Middlebury, VT
- Department of Biology, University of California, Los Angeles, CA
- Department of Biology, University of California, Santa Cruz, CA
- Department of Botany, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI
- Department of Botany, University of Wyoming, Laramie, WY
- Department of Computer Science, University of Maine, Orono, ME
- Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences, Lehigh University, Bethlehem, PA
- Department of Earth and Planetary Science, University of New Mexico, Alburquerque, NM
- Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences, Rutgers, The State University, New Brunswick, NJ
- Department of Earth and Space Sciences, University of Washington, Seattle, WA
- Department of Earth Sciences, California State University, Dominguez Hills, Carson, CA
- Department of Earth Sciences, Heroy Geology Laboratory, Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
- Department of Earth Sciences, Montana State University, Bozeman, MT
- Department of Earth Sciences, University of California, Riverside, CA
- Department of Earth Sciences, University of California, Santa Cruz, CA
- Department of Earth Sciences, University of Maine, Orono, ME
- Department of Earth Sciences, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
- Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, University of California, Los Angeles, CA
- Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology and Laboratory of Tree-Ring Research, The University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
- Department of Ecology and Limnological Research Center, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN
- Department of Geography, Ohio State University, Columbus, OH
- Department of Geography, University of California, Berkeley, CA
- Department of Geography, University of California-Los Angeles, Los Angeles, CA
- Department of Geography, University of Georgia, Athens, GA
- Department of Geography, University of South Florida, Tampa, FL
- Department of Geography, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI
- Department of Geography, University of Wyoming, WY
- Department of Geological Sciences, Brown University, Providence, RI
- Department of Geological Sciences, California State University, Long Beach, CA
- Department of Geological Sciences, Land Use and Environmental Change Institute (LUECI), University of Florida, FL
- Department of Geological Sciences, Ohio State University, Columbus, OH
- Department of Geological Sciences, University of Colorado, Boulder, CO
- Department of Geological Sciences, University of South Carolina, Columbia, SC
- Department of Geology, Baylor University, Waco, TX
- Department of Geology, Middlebury College, Middlebury, VT
- Department of Geology, Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff, AZ
- Department of Geology, The College of Wooster, Wooster, OH
- Department of Geology, University of Akron, Akron, OH
- Department of Geology, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati, OH
- Department of Geology, University of Georgia, Athens, GA
- Department of Geology, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, IL
- Department of Geology, University of Texas at Arlington, TX
- Department of Geology and Geophysics, University of California, Berkeley, CA
- Department of Geology and Geophysics, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN
- Department of Geology and Geophysics, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, Woods Hole, MA
- Department of Geology and Planetary Science, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, PA
- Department of Geoscience, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI
- Department of Geosciences, Climate System Research Center, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA
- Department of Geosciences, Morrill Science Center, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA
- Department of Geosciences, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
- Department of Geosciences, University of Arkansas, Fayetteville, AR
- Department of Geosciences, University of Nebraska, Lincoln, NE
- Department of Marine Chemistry and Geochemistry, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, Woods Hole, MA
- Department of Marine Science, University of South Florida, St. Petersburg, FL
- Department of Marine Sciences, University of Puerto Rico, Mayaguez, Puerto Rico
- Department of Meteorology, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI
- Department of Plant Biology, University of Illinois, Urbana, IL
- Department of Statistics, Baylor University, Waco, TX
- Desert Laboratory, U.S. Geological Survey and University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
- Earth and Environmental Science Program, New York University, NY
- Earth and Environmental Systems Institute, Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA
- Earth and Ocean Sciences, Nicolas School of the Environment and Earth Sciences, Duke University, Durham, NC
- Environmental Science Department, Alaska Pacific University, Anchorage, AK
- EROS, U.S. Geological Survey, Sioux City, SD
- Geography Department, Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA
- Geology and Planetary Science, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, PA
- Geology Department, State University of New York College at Cortland, Cortland, NY
- Illinois State Geological Survey, Champaign, IL
- Institute for Quaternary and Climate Studies, University of Maine, Orono, ME
- Institute for the Study of Planet Earth, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
- Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research and Department of Geological Sciences, University of Colorado, Boulder, CO
- Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics, University of California, Los Angeles, CA
- Institute of Marine and Coastal Sciences, Rutgers, The State University, New Brunswick, NJ
- Institute of Marine Studies, University of California, Santa Cruz, CA
- Jackson School of Geosciences, University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX
- Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University, Palisades, NY
- Large Lakes Observatory, University of Minnesota Duluth, Duluth, MN
- Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Livermore, CA
- Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Center for Accelerated Mass Spectrometry, Livermore, CA
- Limnological Research Center and Department of Geology and Geophysics, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN
- Lone Pine Research, Bozeman, MT
- Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA
- Mountain Research Center and Department of Biology, Montana State University, Bozeman, MT
- Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA
- NASA/Goddard Institute for Space Studies, New York, NY
- National Center, U.S. Geological Survey, Reston, VA
- Natural Resources Division, Paul Smith's College, Paul Smiths, NY
- Nicholas School of the Environment and Earth Sciences, Duke University, Durham, NC
- NOAA Paleoclimatology Program, Boulder, CO
- National Science Foundation-Arizona Accelerator Facility for Isotope Dating, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
- NSF-Arizona AMS Facility, The University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
- Program in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, IL
- Raytheon Polar Services, Centennial, CO
- Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Sciences, University of Miami, Key Biscayne, FL
- School of Natural Resources, University of Nebraska, Lincoln, NE
- Scripps Institution of Oceanography, La Jolla, CA
- Sierra Nevada Research Center, Pacific Southwest Research Station, USDA Forest Service, Berkeley, CA
- Skidaway Institute for Oceanography, Savannah, GA
- St. Croix Watershed Research Station, Science Museum of Minnesota, Marine on St. Croix, MN
- Tree-Ring Laboratory, Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University, NY
- Tree-Ring Laboratory, Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Palisades, NY
- Tree Ring Laboratory, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
- University of Maine, Department of Geological Sciences, ME
- U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Atlanta, GA
- U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Anchorage, AK
- U.S. Geological Survey, Center for Coastal and Marine Geology, St. Petersburg, FL
- U.S. Geological Survey, Denver, CO
- U.S. Geological Survey, Eastern Surface Processes Team, Reston, VA
- U.S. Geological Survey, Menlo Park, CA
- U.S. Geological Survey, Santa Cruz, CA
- U.S. Geological Survey, St. Petersburg, FL
- White Mountain Research Station, Bishop, CA
- Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, Woods Hole, MA

Venezuela
- Departamento de Ciencias de la Tierra, Universidad Pedagogica Experimental Libertador, Caracas
- Estacion de Investigaciones Marinas de Margarita, Fundacion La Salle de Ciencias Naturales, Porlamar

Vietnam
- Northern Mapping Division, DGMV, Hanoi
http://www.co2science.org/data/mwp/institutions.php
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:22 pm

cooran wrote:Hello Alex,

Alex said: There has been very bad extreme weather in Australia in 1893 as well. Was this due to man made CO2 pollution?

Please don’t exaggerate. The 1893 flood was simply the flooding of one river, the Brisbane River, due to normal heavy rainfall from a seasonal cyclone.


"Scientists agree that the Brisbane floods are a consequence of the unusually severe la Niña phase of the el Niño Southern Oscillation, a naturally-occurring four-year cycle of warming and cooling of the world’s oceans, starting in the equatorial eastern Pacific and carried around the globe by the thermohaline circulation of ocean currents.

Scientists also agree – for it is a matter of record – that floods of similar severity have struck the east coast of Australia before: twice in the 19th century and most recently in 1974. These earlier floods could not have been caused by manmade “global warming”, because there was not enough of it to make any difference at that time."
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/origi ... loods.html
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/image ... floods.pdf
Also of interest:
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/monck ... ming_.html




Deep Freeze: Winter's coldest temperatures grip West Michigan
"We're running about 15 degrees below normal,” he said."
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/ ... he_se.html

U.S. shivers from season's coldest weather:
NEW YORK (Reuters) – Bitter cold gripped most of the nation on Saturday, with wind chills pushing the mercury to its lowest temperatures of the winter so far, forecasters said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110122/us_nm/us_weather



And this is Global Warming? Warming???!!!
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby octathlon » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:13 pm

Alex,
Mixed in all the volume of text you have posted, there actually are some valid points for your side of the debate. The problem is that you seem not to be able to recognize them, and you post tons of invalid stuff which completely overwhelms and drowns them out. For example, you can't expect to be taken seriously when you post headlines and statements like this:
Deep Freeze: Winter's coldest temperatures grip West Michigan
"We're running about 15 degrees below normal,” he said."
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/ ... he_se.html

U.S. shivers from season's coldest weather:
NEW YORK (Reuters) – Bitter cold gripped most of the nation on Saturday, with wind chills pushing the mercury to its lowest temperatures of the winter so far, forecasters said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110122/us_nm/us_weather

And this is Global Warming? Warming???!!!

Every place will have its coldest temperatures of the winter every year, just as every place will have its warmest temps of the summer at some point each year. No matter whether each winter is a milder or colder than normal winter, you will have these headlines, because every winter the temperatures will reach their coldest for that winter, see? It's the lowest temperature so far this winter. Brr! But no one is claiming this proves or disproves global warming. It discredits everything else you say when you post this kind of thing.

I am only pointing this out so you can see how it looks to the readers and why you are not being taken seriously in this debate.
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby cooran » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:21 pm

Hello Alex,

No-one is talking about Global Warming. That's an old term, mainly used in the northern hemisphere.
Instead, they discuss Climate Change.

No point in giving long lists of eductional institutions and associated bodies. Just about every one in the world has someone interested in some facet of research.

As an example of resistance to new discoveries that challenge previous knowledge, you only have to look at all the fixed opinions around Neuroplasticity of the Brain to see how scientists around the world were absolutely convinced of, and would not entertain any other perspective, than that the brain could not change after early childhood. Neuroscientists were willing to accept Hubel and Wiesel' discovery that plasticity exists in infancy, because they accepted that the infant brain was in the midst of development. But they rejected Merzenich's discovery that plasticity continue into adulthood. This astonishing new scientific discovery, now accepted, is overthrowing the centuries-old notion that the adult human brain is fixed and unchanging. It is, instead, able to change its own structure and function, even into old age.

Anyway - this thread seems rather pointless - and I do come to Dhamma Wheel for Dhamma.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:33 pm

octathlon wrote:Alex,
Mixed in all the volume of text you have posted, there actually are some valid points for your side of the debate. The problem is that you seem not to be able to recognize them, and you post tons of invalid stuff which completely overwhelms and drowns them out. For example, you can't expect to be taken seriously when you post headlines and statements like this:

Every place will have its coldest temperatures of the winter every year, just as every place will have its warmest temps of the summer at some point each year. No matter whether each winter is a milder or colder than normal winter, you will have these headlines, because every winter the temperatures will reach their coldest for that winter, see? It's the lowest temperature so far this winter. Brr! But no one is claiming this proves or disproves global warming. It discredits everything else you say when you post this kind of thing.

I am only pointing this out so you can see how it looks to the readers and why you are not being taken seriously in this debate.



Octathlon,

Thank you very much for your wise points. Yes, I have made mistakes and am far from perfect. Please point out my other mistakes. As I have been saying a number of times, I am willing to change my position if there is sufficient evidence, and refutations of some of the points that I've raised. So far, the scary hockey stick graphs that I was shown were actually a very partial slide of history. They showed only the portion where CO2 levels rose, and compared current levels to the lower levels. They didn't show more data, from which one could plainly see that current trends are not scary at all. Current temperatures may be
high if compared only to the lower points, but current temperatures would actually be quite low if compared to more distant data. We are technically closer to ICE age, rather than historic hot/warm periods. Also an important point of historic graphs is to show how much nature can change the environment by itself. That change is much more powerful than what humans can do, (short of detonating all nuclear bombs).
Unfortunately I was being ridiculed even from the first two posts
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6963#p110971
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6963#p111048


A lot of what I have said, was not mine. It was of many many scientists, and a lot of different kind of research. Unfortunately those points were not addressed with anything more than "we believe what the UN says", "you don't understand" (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6963#p111078) and rejection of data covering more points to show that current levels of CO2 and temperature are neither extremely high (closer to being low) (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6963#p111084). It is important to realize that nature can create far more severe swings in CO2 and temperature than human carbon emissions. Any degree of heating "saved" by humans can be easily over-ridden by 10x as much heating due to natural causes.

As for the headlines. As you see, we are not burning from heat. Very cold temperatures do occur, and all ice isn't going to melt.
""We're running about 15 degrees below normal," .

It becomes strange to talk about calamity of even 1 degree rise over the century, when seasonal and cyclical changes (locally and globally, over short and very long period of time) have been much greater with life still remaining on the planet.


Of course I understand that there will be the coldest and the hottest point at any segment of time. What caught my eye was "below normal" comment.


Please don't judge what I say. Judge what some of the research says such as:
"CO2 lags an average of about 800 years behind the temperature changes-- confirming that CO2 is not the cause of the temperature increases. "

And even
"If mankind were to cease all economic production and cease buring all carbon fuels, at best, a 2% reduction in CO2 levels could be had. Additional reductions from manking would need to involve an end to “respiration” – manking would need to stop breathing. Having achieved these miniscule reductions, at fantastic cost and loss of personal freedom, nature could, in the bat of an eye, dramatically reverse any man made reduction. You see, temperature drives the CO2 level, CO2 levels do not drive temperature."
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby andre9999 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:39 pm

Alex123 wrote:b) Attack the source of the data (It is right wing propaganda!)


I don't want this to sound like I'm attacking you personally, because that is not my point. I do have an issue with what you said here however, as I often have an issue when I hear people say things like this. When people aren't interested in the source of the data, it signals to me that they probably have not had much higher education, especially in the sciences. Bias of authors is crucial to any academic or scientific endeavor. I trust scientists' accuracy, and I find that laymen (including me), do not provide a needed level of accuracy. That said...

Alex123 wrote:Please don't judge what I say. Judge what some of the research says such as:
"CO2 lags an average of about 800 years behind the temperature changes-- confirming that CO2 is not the cause of the temperature increases. "


This is a problem. The only people that say that CO2 has been the cause of previous cycles are the skeptics. Climate scientists don't think that, and it's not part of their argument.

Because you don't want to read some other websites, I found you a video. If you want, skip to 7:30 in the video and you'll only have to watch about a minute of it to get the gist. The short version is that in the past, orbital changes started a cycle, and released CO2 from oceans and soil amplified it and spread it across the rest of the globe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWJeqgG3Tl8
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:16 pm

Hello Andre,

Alex123 wrote:Please don't judge what I say. Judge what some of the research says such as:
"CO2 lags an average of about 800 years behind the temperature changes-- confirming that CO2 is not the cause of the temperature increases. "

andre9999 wrote:This is a problem. The only people that say that CO2 has been the cause of previous cycles are the skeptics. Climate scientists don't think that, and it's not part of their argument.



Can you summarize in your words the best arguments of those climate scientists who say that humans play a significant part in climate change?

Your statement that "orbital changes started a cycle, and released CO2 from oceans and soil amplified it and spread it across the rest of the globe." doesn't seem to say that humans are responsible at all for the heating. Could you, please, clarify?


andre9999 wrote:Because you don't want to read some other websites,


You can post most relevant excerpts here (and source links).

As for the video clip, thank you for posting it.


Do I understand it correctly that is says that CO2 is an amplifier of various atmospheric feedbacks? (7min 23 second) and it amplifies the heating effect of external things such as precession, obliquity, eccentricity?


If so, my response would be that humans contribute NEGLIGIBLE amounts of CO2 and natural forces easily and quickly can do much more than humans ever will by emitting CO2. For a comparison, the human effect on CO2 is like contributing 2 cents for every $100 dollar bill.


Over 95% of the total CO2 emissions into our atmosphere would occur even if humans were not present on Earth. For example, the natural decay of organic material in forests and grasslands, such as dead trees and grasses, results in the release of about 220 gigatonnes of carbon dioxide every year. This carbon dioxide alone is over 8 times the amount emitted by humans. There are many other sources of CO2 in the Earth’s atmopshere.

The Earth’s Oceans contain 50 times more CO2 than the atmosphere. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide , http://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/viewArticle.do?id=17726 .

If 5% of todays CO2 is produced by human activity (95% would occur if no humans existed on the planet) then a simple calculation will provide us with an absolute figure for Human CO2 production. 387 PPM CO2 x 5% = 19.35 PPM.
...
Total CO2 presence in the atmosphere represents less than 4/10 of 1 percent. (CO2 is less than half of one percent of the atmosphere – If the atmosphere were a $100 dollar bill - all the CO2 in the atmosphere would equal 40 cents). http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/atmos_gases.html . Man made CO2 represents 1/20th of that amount or 2 cents out of every $100 Dollar Bill.
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby Kim OHara » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:33 pm

Hi, Alex,
I asked you a question a while ago and said that I would ignore anything else you posted until you answered the question.
So far, I'm ignoring. Until we know why you reject the weight of genuine climate science, debating individual facts and factoids will get us nowhere.
:namaste:
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Re: Extreme is the New Normal

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:46 pm

Hello Kim,

Kim O'Hara wrote:Hi, Alex,
I asked you a question a while ago and said that I would ignore anything else you posted until you answered the question.
So far, I'm ignoring. Until we know why you reject the weight of genuine climate science, debating individual facts and factoids will get us nowhere.
:namaste:
Kim


Because I have heard (and hopefully misunderstood) the common arguments that:
-CO2 causes (or amplifies the natural warming effects) temperature to rise.
- Humans emit CO2 through burning of coal, etc, (alex: we breath out CO2 as well)
- Thus humans are responsible for temperature increase.

Furthermore, the graphs that show a rise of CO2 level are VERY selective (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6963&start=40#p111326). The start with the lowest, or one of the lowest point, and end with the highest. They totally ignore more data that shows that CO2 levels of 350-390ppm is miniscule compared to 7,000ppm or 1,000ppm that stayed for millions of years.
This is totally relevant as it shows that nature can produce AND REMOVE CO2 at a scale that would dwarf human CO2 emissions. IN Cambrian CO2 levels went from 4,500ppm to 7,000ppm and fell to 4,500ppm. So if changes at such level can occur naturally - it is possible that 95% or more of CO2 fluctuations today are naturally made.

As many scientists and a lot of diverse research have found out,CO2 does not cause rise in temperature.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6963&start=80#p111627

You can, and I would like to, that you post your best arguments (or arguments of those people) that humans play a significant role in climate change.

I am willing to change my views if provided evidence. Please post your best, point-by-point proof of AGW.
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