The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

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tiltbillings
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by tiltbillings »

dhammafriend wrote:Thanks for the replies all. Ive seen his youtube page and listened to why he is now and 'ex buddhist'. The reason people like him are important, even if we disagree on some of his conclusions, is because of people like me. In all my years of trying to get to dhamma i had to wade through all the nonsense from Olcott, Rhys Davis, Blavatsky,Watts etc.
Geez, how old are you?
Eventually I found my way to Gunaratna, Nyanponika, Nanananda etc. And even there one has to be discerning. I think we need to go back to the very beginning. To questions like: what is buddhism? Is there such a thing as buddhism?
And do not forget Richard Gombrich. Mazard, however, is far too idiosyncratic and cranky to be taken seriously, in my opinion, but then no one needs share it.
We've yet to accept that the text runs parallel to the living tradition. And that the text is not always the origin of a practice but the result of a practice.
That is obvious.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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dhammafriend
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by dhammafriend »

Geez, how old are you?

A takedown from Tilt? I'm honored. :bow:
...Mazard, however, is far too idiosyncratic and cranky to be taken seriously, in my opinion, but then no one needs share it.
More idiosyncratic than people like Ven. Thanissaro? I don't know the man personally, yes personal issues are apparent in some of his essays. He even admits as much on YouTube. That doesn't discount his work though.

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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by Dan74 »

Dhammafriend, my understanding is that no respectable academic would touch Mazzard with a 10-foot-pole (and I've tried to get one to engage with him here). Can you cite one published paper in a refereed journal from him? My sense of the man is that he is far too opinionated to actually care for thorough academic research. He's also argued that what we normally understand to be breath in the Pali scriptures is actually flatulence.

I think people are attracted to him because he is a maverick and he doesn't lack originality. These qualities alone a good researcher do not make.
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by Spiny Norman »

martinfrank wrote: The colonialist attitude is mostly at work in academia. For many Western intellectuals it is still not acceptable that Lord Buddha taught 2500 years ago a way to end suffering which Western professors can't improve.
I have noticed a certain arrogance with some modern commentators, there seems to be an assumption that the Buddha's contemporaries were philosophically illiterate.
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by chownah »

He's also argued that what we normally understand to be breath in the Pali scriptures is actually flatulence.
If this is in regards to the article which I think it is then it seems that you have probably misunderstood what the article is saying.....on two levels.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by tiltbillings »

dhammafriend wrote:
Geez, how old are you?

A takedown from Tilt? I'm honored. :bow:
Not meant to be a "takedown"; rather, the point is with Olcott, CAF Rhys Davids, Christmas Humphries, Watts, and company, we are looking at the 40's into the early 70's before good stuff became more readily available. Good stuff could be found back then, with some effort, through the Buddhist Publication Society and other publishers.
...Mazard, however, is far too idiosyncratic and cranky to be taken seriously, in my opinion, but then no one needs share it.
More idiosyncratic than people like Ven. Thanissaro? I don't know the man personally, yes personal issues are apparent in some of his essays. He even admits as much on YouTube. That doesn't discount his work though.
I am not a fan of Ven Thanissaro, but he is preferable to the Mazard who so neatly graphically illustrated himself here with this spiffy avatar: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 85#p285188

All of this is an ongoing dialogue, give and take, exploration.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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m0rl0ck
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by m0rl0ck »

tiltbillings wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote: Anybody know of a good translation of the seminal pali texts directly from the pali and not via victorian england?
Huh?
I was wondering if there were translations out there that started from scratch and might be more free of this sort of thing:
Although it would be ironic to look for a first cause on this subject, I would draw attention to Mrs. C.A.F. Rhys-Davids (1922, p. xiv) who confessed that her own interpretation of the 12-Links Formula (that has now inspired an amazing array of European theories) came from a spiritual experience that she had when reading the earlier work of Eugene Burnouf (ca. 1826) —and the latter theory was not even based on the Pali text.[10] Mrs. Rhys-Davids was among the first to set to work on the primary source concerned, but she did not approach the evidence with an open mind; instead, she sought to validate an earlier assumption. Having formed this expectation, she was very disappointed, she tells us openly, with what she found when she finally came to translate the original Buddhist text; however, despite what she saw as the deficiency of the primary source, she says that she did her best to emulate the earlier interpretation of Eugene Burnouf (ibid.). As is typical of her writing, she also directs insults, in passing, to the Buddhist monks whom she assumes have corrupted the texts —based on her own notions of what the Buddha’s teaching was originally supposed to be, with all evidence to the contrary dismissed as a later accretion.
No doubt the translations were influenced by the biases of the interpreters which i gather were to a large degree 19th and early 20th century brits.
However, after reading more of this thread and thinking about it a bit, it occurs to me that there is probably no beginning to this sort of thing :) and the best i can probably do is to keep the emphasis on practice and not worry too much about philology. So never mind :)
Last edited by m0rl0ck on Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by tiltbillings »

Spiny Norman wrote:
martinfrank wrote: The colonialist attitude is mostly at work in academia.
I have noticed a certain arrogance with some modern commentators, there seems to be an assumption that the Buddha's contemporaries were philosophically illiterate.
The present day scholars of Buddhism who are Buddhist, or even not Buddhist, do not seem to hold that point of view.

Also, the "colonial attitude" is also something that is not unacknowledged and it has been addressed by those naughty Western professors.
For many Western intellectuals it is still not acceptable that Lord Buddha taught 2500 years ago a way to end suffering which Western professors can't improve.
Haven't a clue as what this is supposed to mean.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by tiltbillings »

m0rl0ck wrote:
I was wondering if there were translations out there that started from scratch and might be more free of this sort of thing
Although it would be ironic to look for a first cause on this subject, I would draw attention to Mrs. C.A.F. Rhys-Davids (1922, p. xiv) ...
Probably Ven Thanisarro's and Ven Bodhi's translations would fit that bill, among others, such as Ven Nyanaponika and any number of modern antholgies of Pali suttas that are out there.

CAF Rhys Davids is something of an extreme example, and we really do not need to read her stuff if one does not want to. Like anything, as we gain more knowledge and insight, things improve. The translation we have now are better, and often considerably better, than the earlier ones.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Aloka
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by Aloka »

Dan74 wrote:Dhammafriend, my understanding is that no respectable academic would touch Mazzard with a 10-foot-pole (and I've tried to get one to engage with him here). Can you cite one published paper in a refereed journal from him? My sense of the man is that he is far too opinionated to actually care for thorough academic research. He's also argued that what we normally understand to be breath in the Pali scriptures is actually flatulence.

I think people are attracted to him because he is a maverick and he doesn't lack originality. These qualities alone a good researcher do not make.
Your understanding ? isn't this just judgemental speculation about someone you know nothing about personally, Dan ? Have you read everything he's written? His essays and research can easily be found on the internet including this resouce from when he was studying Pali:

http://www.pali.pratyeka.org/

and this is a reference to his writing on the website of the Oxford Centre of Buddhist Studies in the UK (He's been to the UK and met Richard Gombrich)
Helpful resources on Theravāda Buddhism can be found in the website of the Oxford Center for Buddhist Studies (OCBS). This on-line library offers the precious opportunity to download articles, among the others, by Richard Gombrich, Noa Ronkin, Eisel Mazard, and Sarah Shaw.

http://www.sh.mahidol.ac.th/bodhi/conte ... ntent_id=7
In the past I've had a long chat with Eisel, as well as communicated with him by e-mail & he seems like a really nice, polite and intelligent guy. This made quite a refreshing change from some of the arrogant, bullying and unfriendly attitudes I've occasionally experienced from other people in the internet realm .


:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by mikenz66 »

dhammafriend wrote:Thanks for the replies all. Ive seen his youtube page and listened to why he is now and 'ex buddhist'. The reason people like him are important, even if we disagree on some of his conclusions, is because of people like me. In all my years of trying to get to dhamma i had to wade through all the nonsense from Olcott, Rhys Davis, Blavatsky,Watts etc.
tiltbillings wrote: Geez, how old are you?
I guess I'm lucky I came to this in the 21st C and had no idea who those people were, so it's all rather academic to me...
dhammafriend wrote:Eventually I found my way to Gunaratna, Nyanponika, Nanananda etc. And even there one has to be discerning. I think we need to go back to the very beginning. To questions like: what is buddhism? Is there such a thing as buddhism?
tiltbillings wrote: And do not forget Richard Gombrich.
Or Bhikkhu Bodhi (though I guess Nyanaponika implies that group) who was the first person whose translations and explanations I seriously read. For me, his writings and talks have the great advantage over many other commentators that he doesn't try to argue that he has all the answers.
tiltbillings wrote: Mazard, however, is far too idiosyncratic and cranky to be taken seriously, in my opinion, but then no one needs share it.
He does make some interesting points, but I don't take seriously anyone who implies that they alone have figured things out...
dhammafriend wrote: We've yet to accept that the text runs parallel to the living tradition. And that the text is not always the origin of a practice but the result of a practice.
tiltbillings wrote: That is obvious.
I certainly agree that living traditions are important. The most useful things I learned about practice were from personal instruction.

:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:He does make some interesting points, but I don't take seriously anyone who implies that they alone have figured things out...
That, in my no one needs to share opinion, is a major disqualifier of being taken seriously.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Aloka
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by Aloka »

miken66 wrote:He does make some interesting points, but I don't take seriously anyone who implies that they alone have figured things out...
Where does he imply that? - and if that's the case there are probably plenty of posters on the internet, as well as other writers, who fit into that category .
Last edited by Aloka on Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by mikenz66 »

Aloka wrote:
miken66 wrote:He does make some interesting points, but I don't take seriously anyone who implies that they alone have figured things out...
Where does he imply that? - and if that's the case there are probably plenty of posters on the internet, as well as other writers, who fit into that category.
In everything he posts... Are we talking about the same person? For a start he implies that hardly anyone in Asia understands Pali, which is completely ludicrous. E.g. see: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 95#p176505

:anjali:
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Aloka
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Re: The Opposite of Buddhism - Eisel Mazard

Post by Aloka »

mikenz66 wrote: In everything he posts... Are we talking about the same person? For a start he implies that hardly anyone in Asia understands Pali, which is completely ludicrous.
You've read everything he's written and lived in the same countries in Asia as him, have you ?
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