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Is the Deathless already here? - Dhamma Wheel

Is the Deathless already here?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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clw_uk
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Is the Deathless already here?

Postby clw_uk » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:40 pm

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kc2dpt
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:02 pm

- Peter


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clw_uk
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby clw_uk » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:19 pm

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kc2dpt
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:07 pm

- Peter


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tiltbillings
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:40 pm


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kc2dpt
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:08 pm

So then "deathless state" is just another way of saying "state of arahantship" then?
- Peter


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:37 pm

Hello all

Please excuse me, as you know I don't know any suttas.

But this kind of talk always makes my brain itch a little. In vajrayana (and I thought Theravada too) we're not buddhas. We're just_not_buddhas. We practice and practice, knowing that we would like to end rebirth, craving, ignorance, etc., but we're just totally ordinary deluded beings. It is impossible for us to be enlightened beings who don't remember that, for buddhas have perfect recall. It's impossible for us to be enlightened beings with defilements, too because that's an oxymoron.

Craig I'm not attacking you! It's just that across different traditions this is always discussed differently. In particular, Zen ascribes to Buddha nature which never makes a lot of sense to me. Does Theravada talk about buddha nature too?

Thank you :anjali:


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clw_uk
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby clw_uk » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:28 pm

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:42 pm

Well in many ways what you describe, Craig, lines up with my most basic understanding of the nitty gritty of the path to liberation. If I were to describe the path in one sentence, it would be: we awaken by purifying the mind and removing defilements, thereby attaining a state of freedom from craving, samsara, and rebirth. So there you go! :D


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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:06 pm

- Peter


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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby clw_uk » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:25 pm

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Ben
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby Ben » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:33 pm

Hi Craig

One is not there yet, and the reason one is not there yet is because the cittas that take nibbana as object can only arise after certain conditions are fulfilled, and as others have said, the destruction of some (and ultimately all) the fetters. In the same way a seed has the potential to be a tree but is not a tree until certain conditions have been fulfilled.
The processes of liberation are outlined in the Abhidhamma in detail. I recommened you take a look at Bhikkhu Bodhi's 'A comprehensive manual of the Abhidhamma'.
Given the style of questions that you are raising here on Dhamma Wheel, I also recommend 'The questions of King Milinda: Milinda Panha'. I think it will be of benefit to you.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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clw_uk
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby clw_uk » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:35 pm

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Ben
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby Ben » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:00 pm

Yes, definitely. I also recommend the first chapter, the compendium of consciousness and chapter 4: compendium of the cognitive process.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

nathan
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby nathan » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:34 am

Try this, it is what I do. Watch your mind and body as in any simple practice. By whatever means of reckoning note the kamma making which is occurring. If you can't do this then you will first need to find a method of practice which suits you to do so. Ok, assuming you are now observing the kamma making happen, can you imagine what it would be like for it to not be happening? I find it somewhat unimaginable so far having only observed kamma making of some kind; over and over and over and over and over again.

I would say that it has been helpful to watch the kamma making, just watch it and let it settle down as I relax my grasp and slow down the mental momentum in ' stirring the fire with the stick of attention', this helps me see how it can seem to slip away but is in fact only growing more subtle, lying in wait like hot coals as it were to flare up again at a moments notice with the slightest breath of wind.

That is my test of this thinking. I see kamma making, quickly or slowly, grossly or subtly, akusala or kusala, it is about all I ever see. As I have it, when the kamma making stops it will happen once and for all. No more kamma making. I am quite certain I have yet to see it but it makes sense to me that if and when it does stop, that will be it for kamma making from then on.

Hope that helps bring it down to earth for you, it keeps things in the right perspective for me.
:smile:
metta & upekkha
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:19 am

Nathan,

What excellent advice. Without the awareness in each and every moment of the karma and its fruit we create, how are we ever to end the cycle?

Humbly,
Drolma


rowyourboat
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Re: Is the Deathless already here?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:06 pm

Hi Craig,

You effort in trying to pin down nibbana based on time and space is not meaningful. It is beyond anything the human mind has words to describe exept to say that it is not this thing that we know as existence. It is not any other form of existence that we imagine to be either. To put it simply everything that arises in the 6 sense doors in suffering, so this has nothing to do with any of that. -it is also not annahilation either. Clearly we cannot think of a state which doesnt fall into this - it simply doesnt compute in the human brain- it is acinteyya- we are unable to grasp this state. Sufficient it is to know, all we know as suffering will be at an end.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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