Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

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kirk5a
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:50 pm

Hi Alex.

I'm not looking for any kind of deductive or inferential argument based upon any sutta passages.

I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:06 pm

How about this one:

Any stress that comes into play
is all from consciousness
as a requisite
condition.
With the cessation of consciousness,
there is no stress
coming into play.
Knowing this drawback —
that stress comes from consciousness
as a requisite
condition —
with the stilling of consciousness, the monk
free from hunger
is totally unbound.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:16 pm

kirk5a wrote:Hi Alex.

I'm not looking for any kind of deductive or inferential argument based upon any sutta passages.

I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"
Maybe one needs to establish what is meant by nibbāna-dhātu, particularly by dhātu.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:24 pm

kirk5a wrote:Hi Alex.
I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"


First, please define what you mean by nibbāna-dhātu. In this discussion we are talking about parinibbāna.

Second, how can anyone maintain that Viññāṇaṃ exists "in" parinibbāna?

The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:43 pm

Alex123 wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Hi Alex.
I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"


First, please define what you mean by nibbāna-dhātu.

Matheesha first used that term. He can say what he means.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:48 pm

Kirk,

in any case, you know what the suttas state about viññāṇa and parinibbāna. It is the end of consciousness and there isn't anything "that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity".
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:55 pm

Alex123 wrote:there isn't anything "that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity".

Now I can ask you to provide a sutta which states exactly what you have said here. "There isn't anything..."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:06 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Alex123 wrote:there isn't anything "that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity".

Now I can ask you to provide a sutta which states exactly what you have said here. "There isn't anything..."



Too many suttas to list. As you remember, there are 5 aggregates, not 6 aggregates. All those five aggregates cease.



"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

How can there be anything other than 5 aggregates?
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:12 pm

Alex123 wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
Alex123 wrote:there isn't anything "that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity".

Now I can ask you to provide a sutta which states exactly what you have said here. "There isn't anything..."



Too many suttas to list. As you remember, there are 5 aggregates, not 6 aggregates. All those five aggregates cease.



"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

How can there be anything other than 5 aggregates?

Just one will suffice, thank you. No arguments regarding 5 aggregates vs 6 aggreates, if you don't mind. Simply a quotation where the Buddha says
"there isn't anything that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Bluishpurple » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:55 pm

Very interesting thread I must say.

Bluishpurple
:namaste:

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:06 pm

Hi Kirk,
kirk5a wrote:Just one will suffice, thank you. No arguments regarding 5 aggregates vs 6 aggreates, if you don't mind. Simply a quotation where the Buddha says
"there isn't anything that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity"

I'm surprised you didn't quote the following, though it's probably been discussed somewhere on this thread before...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-043
The Not-born {Iti 2.16; Iti 37}
"There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned."

The born, come-to-be, produced,
The made, the conditioned, the transient,
Conjoined with decay and death,
A nest of disease, perishable,
Sprung from nutriment and craving's cord —
That is not fit to take delight in.

The escape from that, the peaceful,
Beyond reasoning, everlasting,
The not-born, the unproduced,
The sorrowless state that is void of stain,
The cessation of states linked to suffering,
The stilling of the conditioned — bliss.


:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:24 pm

A far better translation:

This said by the Blessed One, the Worthy One, was heard by me in this
way: "Monks, there is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from
making, freedom from conditioning.

For, monks if there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming,
freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is
birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here.

But, monks, because there is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom
from making, freedom from conditioning, therefore the escape from that which is
birth, becoming, making, conditioning is known.”


[Here is the Buddha’s own verse commentary on his statement.]

This meaning the Blessed One spoke, it is spoken here in this way:

     That which is born, become, arisen, made, conditioned,
     And thus unstable, put together of decay and death,
     The seat of disease, brittle,
     Caused and craving food,
     That is not fit to find pleasure in.

     Being freed of this, calmed beyond conjecture, stable,
     Freed from birth, freed from arising, freed from sorrow,
     Freed from passions, the elements of suffering stopped,
     The conditioning [of greed, hatred and delusion] appeased,
     This is ease [bliss].
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:50 pm

Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-043
The Not-born {Iti 2.16; Iti 37}
"There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned.


The above is misleading translation of "ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ."

The "ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ" should not be taken as implying some sort of awareness or existence. "

In that quote there is nothing to suggest that parinibbana is existence or awareness of some sort.


Without 5 aggregates there cannot be anything that could be called existence of any kind. Without mind, there is no awareness of ANY kind.

Wrong view #8
"Herein, bhikkhus, recluse or a certain brahmin is a rationalist, an investigator. He declares his view — hammered out by reason, deduced from his investigations, following his own flight of thought — thus: 'That which is called "the eye," "the ear," "the nose," "the tongue," and "the body" — that self is impermanent, unstable, non-eternal, subject to change. But that which is called "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) — that self is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and it will remain the same just like eternity itself.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html
The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


The Buddha has called it wrong view to imply that "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) can remain permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and it will remain the same just like eternity itself


What awareness can there be when mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) ceases?
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:57 pm

Alex123 wrote:. . .
Oh, dear, back to your it is suicide stuff again.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:02 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:. . .
Oh, dear, back to your it is suicide stuff again.


So do you think that parinibbāna is some form of unchanging awareness?

How can there be any awareness if "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) is impermanent and ceases?

"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97

Without these, you can't have awareness of any kind.

So the "not-born (ajātaṃ), a not-brought-to-being (abhūtaṃ), a not-made (akataṃ), a not-conditioned (asaṅkhataṃ)" should not be taken as implying some sort of awareness or existence. It is negation of jāta, bhūta, kata and saṅkhata. Just like anatta is negation of atta, and not some teaching of indescribable Atta that has to be perceived for it cannot be described in words.
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:10 am

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:. . .
Oh, dear, back to your it is suicide stuff again.


So do you think that parinibbāna is some form of unchanging awareness?

How can there be any awareness if "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) is impermanent and ceases?

"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97

Without these, you can't have awareness of any kind.
I'll take the Buddha's words about it. There is no way to measure the nibbaized individual, dead or alive. You can go with your suicide stuff.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:14 am

Alex123 wrote:. . .

So do you think that parinibbāna is some form of unchanging awareness?

How can there be any awareness if "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) is impermanent and ceases?

"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97

Without these, you can't have awareness of any kind.

tiltbillings wrote:
I'll take the Buddha's words about it. There is no way to measure the nibbaized individual, dead or alive. You can go with your suicide stuff.


(underline is mine)

So do you believe in an individual that cannot be measured once he/she/it reaches parinibbāna?
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:16 am

Alex123 wrote:(underline is mine)

So do you believe in an individual that cannot be measured once he/she/it reaches parinibbāna?
There is no measurement possible while alive or dead of the "individuall."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:21 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:(underline is mine)

So do you believe in an individual that cannot be measured once he/she/it reaches parinibbāna?
There is no measurement possible while alive or dead of the "individuall."

(underline is mine)

So you are saying that there IS individual that cannot be measured, alive or dead.


How can there be any awareness for this measureless "individual" if "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) is impermanent and ceases?

"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97

Here is how parinibbāna is described:
"The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9

Without these, you can't have awareness of any kind for this "individual".

So Mike's quote from {Iti 2.16; Iti 37} ("not-born (ajātaṃ), a not-brought-to-being (abhūtaṃ), a not-made (akataṃ), a not-conditioned (asaṅkhataṃ)" ) is not some refined mode of awareness or existence which would contradict Ud 8.9, SN 22.97 or form wrong view #8 in DN#1. "A" in front of jāta, bhūta, kata in pali excludes "born, come-to-be, produced" . So the meaning is closer to "there is nothing that is born, made or conditioned" in parinibbāna.
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:32 am

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:(underline is mine)

So do you believe in an individual that cannot be measured once he/she/it reaches parinibbāna?
There is no measurement possible while alive or dead of the "individual."


So you are saying that there IS individual that cannot be measured, alive or dead.
Now you are just playing games and I am not wasting my time with you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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