Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

[kirk5a]

Hi Alex.

I'm not looking for any kind of deductive or inferential argument based upon any sutta passages.

I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"

[rowyourboat]

How about this one:

Any stress that comes into play
is all from consciousness
as a requisite
condition.
With the cessation of consciousness,
there is no stress
coming into play.
Knowing this drawback —
that stress comes from consciousness
as a requisite
condition —
with the stilling of consciousness, the monk
free from hunger
is totally unbound.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

with metta

Matheesha

[tiltbillings]

Hi Alex.

I'm not looking for any kind of deductive or inferential argument based upon any sutta passages.

I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"

Maybe one needs to establish what is meant by nibbāna-dhātu, particularly by dhātu.

[Alex123]

Hi Alex.
I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"

First, please define what you mean by nibbāna-dhātu. In this discussion we are talking about parinibbāna.

Second, how can anyone maintain that Viññāṇaṃ exists "in" parinibbāna?

The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[kirk5a]

Hi Alex.
I am interested in a sutta passage which directly, clearly and unambiguously states "there can be no conscious awareness of the nibbana-dhathu"

First, please define what you mean by nibbāna-dhātu.

Matheesha first used that term. He can say what he means.

[Alex123]

Kirk,

in any case, you know what the suttas state about viññāṇa and parinibbāna. It is the end of consciousness and there isn't anything "that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity".

[kirk5a]

there isn't anything "that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity".

Now I can ask you to provide a sutta which states exactly what you have said here. "There isn't anything..."

[Alex123]

there isn't anything "that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity".

Now I can ask you to provide a sutta which states exactly what you have said here. "There isn't anything..."

Too many suttas to list. As you remember, there are 5 aggregates, not 6 aggregates. All those five aggregates cease.



"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

How can there be anything other than 5 aggregates?

[kirk5a]

there isn't anything "that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity".

Now I can ask you to provide a sutta which states exactly what you have said here. "There isn't anything..."

Too many suttas to list. As you remember, there are 5 aggregates, not 6 aggregates. All those five aggregates cease.



"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

How can there be anything other than 5 aggregates?

Just one will suffice, thank you. No arguments regarding 5 aggregates vs 6 aggreates, if you don't mind. Simply a quotation where the Buddha says
"there isn't anything that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity"

[Bluishpurple]

Very interesting thread I must say.

Bluishpurple

[mikenz66]

Hi Kirk,

Just one will suffice, thank you. No arguments regarding 5 aggregates vs 6 aggreates, if you don't mind. Simply a quotation where the Buddha says
"there isn't anything that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity"

I'm surprised you didn't quote the following, though it's probably been discussed somewhere on this thread before...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-043
The Not-born {Iti 2.16; Iti 37}

"There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned."

The born, come-to-be, produced,
The made, the conditioned, the transient,
Conjoined with decay and death,
A nest of disease, perishable,
Sprung from nutriment and craving's cord —
That is not fit to take delight in.

The escape from that, the peaceful,
Beyond reasoning, everlasting,
The not-born, the unproduced,
The sorrowless state that is void of stain,
The cessation of states linked to suffering,
The stilling of the conditioned — bliss.

Mike

[tiltbillings]

A far better translation:

This said by the Blessed One, the Worthy One, was heard by me in this
way: "Monks, there is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from
making, freedom from conditioning.

For, monks if there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming,
freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is
birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here.

But, monks, because there is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom
from making, freedom from conditioning, therefore the escape from that which is
birth, becoming, making, conditioning is known.”

[Here is the Buddha’s own verse commentary on his statement.]

This meaning the Blessed One spoke, it is spoken here in this way:

     That which is born, become, arisen, made, conditioned,
     And thus unstable, put together of decay and death,
     The seat of disease, brittle,
     Caused and craving food,
     That is not fit to find pleasure in.

     Being freed of this, calmed beyond conjecture, stable,
     Freed from birth, freed from arising, freed from sorrow,
     Freed from passions, the elements of suffering stopped,
     The conditioning [of greed, hatred and delusion] appeased,
     This is ease [bliss].

[Alex123]

Mike,

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-043
The Not-born {Iti 2.16; Iti 37}

"There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned.

The above is misleading translation of "ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ."

The "ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ" should not be taken as implying some sort of awareness or existence. "

In that quote there is nothing to suggest that parinibbana is existence or awareness of some sort.


Without 5 aggregates there cannot be anything that could be called existence of any kind. Without mind, there is no awareness of ANY kind.

Wrong view #8
"Herein, bhikkhus, recluse or a certain brahmin is a rationalist, an investigator. He declares his view — hammered out by reason, deduced from his investigations, following his own flight of thought — thus: 'That which is called "the eye," "the ear," "the nose," "the tongue," and "the body" — that self is impermanent, unstable, non-eternal, subject to change. But that which is called "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) — that self is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and it will remain the same just like eternity itself.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html
The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


The Buddha has called it wrong view to imply that "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) can remain permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and it will remain the same just like eternity itself


What awareness can there be when mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) ceases?

[tiltbillings]

. . .

Oh, dear, back to your it is suicide stuff again.

[Alex123]

. . .

Oh, dear, back to your it is suicide stuff again.

So do you think that parinibbāna is some form of unchanging awareness?

How can there be any awareness if "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) is impermanent and ceases?

"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97

Without these, you can't have awareness of any kind.

So the "not-born (ajātaṃ), a not-brought-to-being (abhūtaṃ), a not-made (akataṃ), a not-conditioned (asaṅkhataṃ)" should not be taken as implying some sort of awareness or existence. It is negation of jāta, bhūta, kata and saṅkhata. Just like anatta is negation of atta, and not some teaching of indescribable Atta that has to be perceived for it cannot be described in words.

[tiltbillings]

. . .

Oh, dear, back to your it is suicide stuff again.

So do you think that parinibbāna is some form of unchanging awareness?

How can there be any awareness if "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) is impermanent and ceases?

"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97

Without these, you can't have awareness of any kind.

I'll take the Buddha's words about it. There is no way to measure the nibbaized individual, dead or alive. You can go with your suicide stuff.

[Alex123]

. . .

So do you think that parinibbāna is some form of unchanging awareness?

How can there be any awareness if "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) is impermanent and ceases?

"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97

Without these, you can't have awareness of any kind.

I'll take the Buddha's words about it. There is no way to measure the nibbaized individual, dead or alive. You can go with your suicide stuff.

(underline is mine)

So do you believe in an individual that cannot be measured once he/she/it reaches parinibbāna?

[tiltbillings]

(underline is mine)

So do you believe in an individual that cannot be measured once he/she/it reaches parinibbāna?

There is no measurement possible while alive or dead of the "individuall."

[Alex123]

(underline is mine)

So do you believe in an individual that cannot be measured once he/she/it reaches parinibbāna?

There is no measurement possible while alive or dead of the "individuall."

(underline is mine)

So you are saying that there IS individual that cannot be measured, alive or dead.


How can there be any awareness for this measureless "individual" if "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) is impermanent and ceases?

"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97

Here is how parinibbāna is described:
"The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9

Without these, you can't have awareness of any kind for this "individual".

So Mike's quote from {Iti 2.16; Iti 37} ("not-born (ajātaṃ), a not-brought-to-being (abhūtaṃ), a not-made (akataṃ), a not-conditioned (asaṅkhataṃ)" ) is not some refined mode of awareness or existence which would contradict Ud 8.9, SN 22.97 or form wrong view #8 in DN#1. "A" in front of jāta, bhūta, kata in pali excludes "born, come-to-be, produced" . So the meaning is closer to "there is nothing that is born, made or conditioned" in parinibbāna.

[tiltbillings]

(underline is mine)

So do you believe in an individual that cannot be measured once he/she/it reaches parinibbāna?

There is no measurement possible while alive or dead of the "individual."

So you are saying that there IS individual that cannot be measured, alive or dead.

Now you are just playing games and I am not wasting my time with you.