Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:
There is no way to measure the nibbaized individual, dead or alive.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121755

tiltbillings wrote:
There is no measurement possible while alive or dead of the "individuall."
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121760


Tilt, so do you believe in an individual that cannot be measured? Yes or no?

tiltbillings wrote:
I am not wasting my time with you.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121763


Please give a strait answer rather than attacking me with "you are just playing games".

tiltbillings wrote:
Oh, dear, back to your it is suicide stuff again.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121750


Perhaps because you believe in an individial that you are so afraid will cease that you call it "suicide stuff".
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:50 am

And so it goes with you, Alex, you set up straw men, don't let them go. Not playing your silly games. Been there done that. It is a waste of time.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:And so it goes with you, Alex, you set up straw men,


Where?

Didn't you say:

There is no way to measure the nibbaized individual, dead or alive.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121755
There is no measurement possible while alive or dead of the "individuall."
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121760

To which I have a reasonable question: Do you believe in an individual that cannot be measured?

Yes or No ?
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:56 am

{{{{yawn}}}}

Oh, look a straw man!!

Image
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:58 am

tiltbillings wrote:Oh, look a straw man!!


Where exactly?



Do you believe in an "individual that cannot be measured"?
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:03 am

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Oh, look a straw man!!


Where exactly?
Here:

Image

Do you believe in an "individual that cannot be measured"?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:10 am

Please justify why it is a strawman.


There is no way to measure the nibbaized individual, dead or alive.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121755
There is no measurement possible while alive or dead of the "individuall."
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121760

So is there this individual about whom "There is no measurement possible while alive or dead"?

Yes or no?


"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97

Parinibbāna is described thus:
The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9


What is left when 5 aggregates cease?
Can that be called awareness of any kind?
Can there be measureless individual without 5 aggregates?
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:23 am

No. I have been through this before with you. once you start with a straw man, Imageyou do not let it go. No point in taking it any further.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:29 am

tiltbillings wrote:No. I have been through this before with you. once you start with a straw man, Imageyou do not let it go. No point in taking it any further.



Please tell me why it was a strawman. What is your justification for it?


It looks like you simply refuse to answer certain questions and issues that I've raised:

ex:
What awareness can there be when mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) ceases?
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121749

You simply brushed it aside with
"oh, dear, back to your it is suicide stuff again."
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121750

What don't I understand? Where is my strawman?

You have also said
There is no way to measure the nibbaized individual, dead or alive.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121755
There is no measurement possible while alive or dead of the "individuall."
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121760

Where is my strawman in asking you about this measureless individual ? You brought this issue, and I've asked you to explain it.

You called my reasonable question to be strawman. Where am I wrong?


Please deal with questions, not with people.
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:30 am

Alex,

You might want to start with this:

http://kr.buddhism.org/~skb/down/papers/094.pdf

before jumping on a conventional usage of language as if the the person using a conventional form of speech is making an "ultimate" statement with a conventional term. By now you really should know better than that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:34 am

tiltbillings wrote:Alex,
before jumping on a conventional usage of language as if the the person using a conventional form of speech is making an "ultimate" statement with a conventional term. By now you really should know better than that.


Thank you for this post. Why didn't you said so much earlier?

So your individual exists only conventionally, then there is no suicide (of a person that doesn't ultimately exist in the first place) when 5 aggregates cease. Right? There is no individual in an ultimate sense. So complete cessation of 5 aggregates is not cessation of any One.

Ok.

So when parinibbāna occurs, is there awareness of any kind?

If so,

How can there be awareness if 5 aggregates, including citta, mano and consciousness, cease?

Please reply,


Thank you,

Alex
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:42 am

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Alex,
before jumping on a conventional usage of language as if the the person using a conventional form of speech is making an "ultimate" statement with a conventional term. By now you really should know better than that.


Thank you for this post. Why didn't you said so much earlier?
Why do you go off on your tangent? Putting quotes around a word makes a point as to how it is used. "individual" But you persisted.

The individual, alive or dead, is beyond measure, trackless. I see no reason to buy your line of reasoning.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:02 am

tiltbillings wrote:Why do you go off on your tangent?


tiltbillings wrote:Oh, dear, back to your it is suicide stuff again.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121750


Please answer my post rather than saying things like the above.


tiltbillings wrote: Putting quotes around a word makes a point as to how it is used. "individual" But you persisted.


You didn't put the quotes around individual in:
There is no way to measure the nibbaized individual, dead or alive.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=60#p121755


tiltbillings wrote:The individual, alive or dead, is beyond measure, trackless. I see no reason to buy your line of reasoning.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039&start=80#p121780


No quotes around individual here either. Does this individual that you are talking about, without quotes, exist conventionally or ultimately as well?

What do you mean by "The individual, alive or dead, is beyond measure, trackless."


Parinibbāna is described thus:
The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9


1) Can there be awareness of any kind in Parinibbāna?
2) Can there be "The individual, alive or dead, is beyond measure, trackless" without 5 aggregates or consciousness of any kind?
3) How do you reconcile anatta with "The individual, alive or dead, is beyond measure, trackless" ?
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:40 am

I don't have to answer your questions. You have your interpretation. I don't share it and I see no point in a protracted argument with you over it.

Others can make up their mind as the nature of the trackless arahant before and after death.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:47 am

tiltbillings wrote:I don't have to answer your questions. You have your interpretation. I don't share it and I see no point in a protracted argument with you over it.


To have an argument you need to actually answer the questions that I've raised. I haven't seen your point-by-point answers for there to be an argument.


tiltbillings wrote:Others can make up their mind as the nature of the trackless arahant before and after death.


I suggest we look at what the suttas say.

"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97 S

So what kind of awareness can eternally remain?


Parinibbāna is described thus:
The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9

Can there be permanent awareness of any kind in Parinibbāna for this "trackless arahant"??
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:52 am

Alex123 wrote:So what kind of awareness can eternally remain?
Did I say that? Nope. So, it is not a question I need to answer.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:54 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:So what kind of awareness can eternally remain?
Did I say that? Nope. So, it is not a question I need to answer.


So there is no awareness in Parinibbāna. I am glad that we agree on what the suttas, such as Ud 8.9, say.


Also,
"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97


I also like this teaching:

"But, lord, might there be agitation over what is internally not present?"

"There might, monk," the Blessed One said. "There is the case where someone has this view: 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity.' He hears a Tathagata or a Tathagata's disciple teaching the Dhamma for the elimination of all view-positions, determinations, biases, inclinations, & obsessions; for the stilling of all fabrications; for the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. The thought occurs to him, 'So it might be that I will be annihilated! So it might be that I will perish! So it might be that I will not exist!' He grieves & is tormented, weeps, beats his breast, & grows delirious. It's thus that there is agitation over what is internally not present."

"But, lord, might there be non-agitation over what is internally not present?"

"There might, monk," the Blessed One said. "There is the case where someone doesn't have this view: 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity.' He hears a Tathagata or a Tathagata's disciple teaching the Dhamma for the elimination of all view-positions, determinations, biases, inclinations, & obsessions; for the stilling of all fabrications; for the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. The thought doesn't occur to him, 'So it might be that I will be annihilated! So it might be that I will perish! So it might be that I will not exist!' He doesn't grieve, isn't tormented, doesn't weep, beat his breast, or grow delirious. It's thus that there is non-agitation over what is internally not present."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:04 am

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:So what kind of awareness can eternally remain?
Did I say that? Nope. So, it is not a question I need to answer.


So there is no awareness in Parinibbāna. I am glad that we agree on what the suttas, such as Ud 8.9, say.


Also,
"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." -SN 22.97
I did not say that, either. No need to.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:08 am

tiltbillings wrote: did not say that, either. No need to.




So you disagree with SN 22.97 when it says that "there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity. ?


It seems like you have no clear cut answer. You say that you didn't say that awareness remains eternally. Then you don't say that awareness ceases. So what is your answer?

your evasions sound like:
"When this was said, Sañjaya Belatthaputta said to me, 'If you ask me if there exists another world [after death], if I thought that there exists another world, would I declare that to you? I don't think so. I don't think in that way. I don't think otherwise. I don't think not. I don't think not not. If you asked me if there isn't another world... both is and isn't... neither is nor isn't... if there are beings who transmigrate... if there aren't... both are and aren't... neither are nor aren't... if the Tathagata exists after death... doesn't... both... neither exists nor doesn't exist after death, would I declare that to you? I don't think so. I don't think in that way. I don't think otherwise. I don't think not. I don't think not not.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



Do you accept suttas such as Ud 8.9 and -SN 22.97?
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:09 am

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: did not say that, either. No need to.




So you disagree with SN 22.97 when it says that "there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity. ?


It seems like you have no clear cut answer. You say that you didn't say that awareness remains eternally. Then you don't say that awareness ceases. So what is your answer?


Do you accept suttas such as Ud 8.9 and -SN 22.97?
I have no problem with the suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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