"The Deathless" (amata)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Martin Po » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:17 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Martin Po wrote:It's impossible to uproot greed, hatred and delusion witout Nibbana-element.
So, there is some pre-existing thing that is required for awakening.


Yes, but it exist only in reference to samsara. Like 0 and 1.
When some one is in jail, there is conception/idea/namarupa of liberty for him; You can be freed only when you are enchained. But if you are already free, there is no such conception/idea/namarupa as liberty, because liberty is not-existent, only jail is existent, that why jail can be finished, but not liberty.

Nibbana-element is in other side of our consciousness (SN 55.5, MN 44), consciousness is a result of Nibbana-element. Without pure element, on which information becomes apparent, there is no consciousness. Like without a white paper ink not becomes apparent.
Like a sound and silence, movement and stability stability, 1 and 0, etc.

Can we say that there is sound without silence? No.
Can we say that there is silence-element? Yes we can.
But do it realy "exist"? No, because silence become apparent in comparison of sound. Because silence is not-sound, absence of sound, and have no any other quality, only a non-sound quality.
It is possible to be liberated from sound without silence? No.
At the same way, it is impossible to be liberated from jail if there is no freedom. No.
At the same way it is impossible to "be liberated" from Samsara if there is no Nibbana. No.
But Nibbana-element have any quality other than non-Samsara, non-dukkha, non-agging, non-death etc? No.

Ud 8.1 PTS: Ud 80
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)
...
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Martin Po
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:41 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am

Martin Po wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Martin Po wrote:It's impossible to uproot greed, hatred and delusion witout Nibbana-element.
So, there is some pre-existing thing that is required for awakening.


Yes, but it exist only in reference to samsara. Like 0 and 1.
And so how does that differ from Brahman?

When some one is in jail, there is conception/idea/namarupa of liberty for him; You can be freed only when you are enchained. But if you are already free, there is no such conception/idea/namarupa as liberty, because liberty is not-existent, only jail is existent, that why jail can be finished, but not liberty.
This makes no sense.

Nibbana-element is in other side of our consciousness (SN 55.5, MN 44), consciousness is a result of Nibbana-element. Without pure element, on which information becomes apparent, there is no consciousness. Like without a white paper ink not becomes apparent.
Like a sound and silence, movement and stability stability, 1 and 0, etc.
Now you are talking Hinduism or Neo-Platonism.


Ud 8.1 PTS: Ud 80
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)
...
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
There is not a thing in this text -- nothing -- that requires a self-existent thing as a precursor to awakening.

I would suggest that you take the time to read through this thread.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Martin Po » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:08 am

Without 1 there is no more 0.
Nibbana without resedue, have no residue.
There is no a hole of eaten doughnut.

For one Arahant Nibbana-element exist until there is Arahant's body, with passing away of this body, there is no more Nibbana-element. Nothink remain. No resedue.
Nothnig dont mean somethink, nothink mean nothing.

Perharps i dont understand what is your objection about. But if you mean that there is no suffering, no cause, no cessation, no way - you are wrong. If you just point out anatta - you a right, but there is also such phenomenon as ignorance, craving, grasping and others defilements. We can not clean and purify somethink what have no clean and pure quality.

It's impossible to uproot greed, hatred and delusion without Nibbana-element, without wisdom-element. between 1 and 0 there is no concatc, even between 0,00..01 and 0 there is no contact, and 0,00..01 remain on endless distance from 0. Zero is uproot-element. It's not some reflection or idea, it is possible experiance.

PS i dont speak about Nibbana as "liberation", i speak about Nibbana as "cessation".

I can said nothing more to illustrate Nibbana-element, so if you convinced that there is no cessation on suffering, there is no 3 Noble truth, and you dont belief Buddha's teaching is Pali Canon, i can not help you to understand it.

With metta.
Last edited by Martin Po on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Martin Po
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:41 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:12 am

Martin Po wrote:Without 1 there is no more 0.
Nibbana without resedue, have no residue.
There is no a hole of eaten doughnut.

For one Arahant Nibbana-element exist until there is Arahant's body, with passing away of this body, there is no more Nibbana-element. Nothink remain. No resedue.
Nothnig dont mean somethink, nothink mean nothing.

Perharps i dont understand what is your objection about. But if you mean that there is no suffering, no cause, no cessation, no way - you are wrong. If you just point out anatta - you a right, but there is also such phenomenon as ignorance, craving, grasping and others defilements. We can not clean and purify somethink what have no clean and pure quality.

PS i dont speak about Nibbana as "liberation of somethink", i speak about Nibbana as cessation of movement.
I realize English is not your first language; however, what you are saying here makes little sense, and has no basis in the suttas. Again, take the time and read through this thread carefully.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Martin Po » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:24 am

There is basis in sutta about Nibbana-dhatu, about cessation.
There is also Thannisaro Bhikkhu and Ajhan Mun, if you are not agree with Buddha and others experianced practitioners, it's up to you.
Martin Po
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:41 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:29 am

Martin Po wrote:There is basis in sutta about Nibbana-dhatu, about cessation.
Certainly, but not the way you describe it.

And since you have used the word "dhatu," do tell us what it actually means and how it is actually used in the suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby cooran » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:00 am

Hello Martin, Tilt,

Here is the Nibbana-Dhatu Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7059
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:27 am

cooran wrote:Hello Martin, Tilt,

Here is the Nibbana-Dhatu Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044

With metta,
Chris
I am well aware of that sutta, and it does not alter anything I have said in this thread. There is a problem, of course, with how dhatu is understood. "Element" is probably the most common way it is translated, but that is, it would seem, a problematic translation in that it implies a thingness to nibbana, as we have just seen.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Martin Po » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Martin Po wrote:There is basis in sutta about Nibbana-dhatu, about cessation.
Certainly, but not the way you describe it.

And since you have used the word "dhatu," do tell us what it actually means and how it is actually used in the suttas.


Perharps.
To explain better, by 0 i mean absence of 1, by silence i mean absence of sound, by Nibbana-dhatu i mean absence of movement of mind, absence of greed, hatred, delusion etc.

You are reason to break all possible ground to apearence of permanent-atta, but in Nibbana-dhatu there is no ground for such phenomenon as "I", "Mine", "I'am".
Why?
Because nothing can penetrate it. Mara have no acces to one who knows, enter and dwell in such taintless abiding. Form, feeling, perceptions, mental formations, consciousness are seen as they are, without contact. 1 have no contact with 0. And without 1 nothink remain. River have 2 shore, without river there is no shores. This river is consciousness river, when there is no movement (no craving), there is no river.

It's just a simile.

Anyway you are reason to break all mental formations about Nibbana, because holy life is lived not for honor or gain / virtue / concentration / vision and knowledge, but only for Nibbana, for uproot of greed, hatred and delusion. (MN 29)
Last edited by Martin Po on Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Martin Po
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:41 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby reflection » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:43 am

tiltbillings wrote:
cooran wrote:Hello Martin, Tilt,

Here is the Nibbana-Dhatu Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044

With metta,
Chris
I am well aware of that sutta, and it does not alter anything I have said in this thread. There is a problem, of course, with how dhatu is understood. "Element" is probably the most common way it is translated, but that is, it would seem, a problematic translation in that it implies a thingness to nibbana, as we have just seen.

I agree "elements" is not the most useful translation, but the problem also lies in the term nibbana. Nibbana being a noun already implies a thingness. But we should understand it as a noun like "freedom". Freedom is not a thing on its own, but is descriptive of things one is free off. We could say "elements of freedom" and everybody would understand they are not things you can find somewhere. But when saying nibbana some people automatically assume it is speaking about a sort of permanent experience, so the "elements of nibbana" get their own meaning as well. "The deathless" of course is a similar case as you have argued well.
User avatar
reflection
 
Posts: 1115
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:26 pm

Martin Po wrote: . . .
Quite frankly, I do not understand what you are trying to say here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:28 pm

reflection wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
cooran wrote:Hello Martin, Tilt,

Here is the Nibbana-Dhatu Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044

With metta,
Chris
I am well aware of that sutta, and it does not alter anything I have said in this thread. There is a problem, of course, with how dhatu is understood. "Element" is probably the most common way it is translated, but that is, it would seem, a problematic translation in that it implies a thingness to nibbana, as we have just seen.

I agree "elements" is not the most useful translation, but the problem also lies in the term nibbana. Nibbana being a noun already implies a thingness. But we should understand it as a noun like "freedom". Freedom is not a thing on its own, but is descriptive of things one is free off. We could say "elements of freedom" and everybody would understand they are not things you can find somewhere. But when saying nibbana some people automatically assume it is speaking about a sort of permanent experience, so the "elements of nibbana" get their own meaning as well. "The deathless" of course is a similar case as you have argued well.
The one thing that would be seriously worth doing is looking at how dhatu is used throughout the suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Martin Po » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:14 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Martin Po wrote: . . .
Quite frankly, I do not understand what you are trying to say here.


Nothink important :)
Martin Po
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:41 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:35 pm

Hello friends,
The way I understand Dhatu means the five aggregate. In my native language we call Dhatu for Buddha’s or Arahant’s body parts. (egg: Tooth relics)

Most of Sri Lankan Theravada monkS interpret these two types as follows:
-------------------------------
When Nibbāna is realized in the body, it is called Sopādisesa
Nibbāna Dhātu. When an Arahant attains Pari-Nibbāna after
the dissolution of the body, without any remainder of any
physical existence, it is called Anupādisesa Nibbāna Dhātu.
Page 391:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf
---------------------------------
Last night I brought up this matter with the monk at my temple. His explanation is the same as above.
Then I explained to him about Ven, Thanissaros translation.
He said that some believe that the second type Anupadisesa Nibbana Dhatu, refer to Anagami’s who has not attain full liberation as yet.
I know this is pretty controversial and please keep the open mind and consult with some reliable sources.
Meanwhile I look for more details.
SarathW
 
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby SarathW » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:56 am

I found more info:

Upādi: lit. 'something which one grasps, to which one clings, i.e. the 5 groups of existence khandha. In the suttas, the word is mostly used in such expressions as;One of the 2 fruits may be expected: either perfect understanding or, if the groups are still remaining sati upādi-sese 'if there is a remainder of groups, Anāgāmīship; D. 22. Further A. IV. 118:;Here the Perfect One has passed into the Nibbāna-element in which no more groups are remaining anupādi-sesa Cf. nibbāna upādinna-rūpa: 'kammically acquired materiality', or 'matter clung-to by kamma', is identical with kamma-produced materiality kammaja-rūpa, see: samutthāna In Vis.M XIV it is said:;That materiality which, later on, we shall refer to as 'kamma-produced' kammaja is, for its being dependent on previous pre-natal kamma, called 'kammically acquired'. '' The term upādinna occurs so in the suttas, e.g. M. 28 WHEEL 101, 62, 140. See Dhs. §990; Khandha Vibh.

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... 3_u.htm#upādi
SarathW
 
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:28 am

SarathW wrote:Hello friends,
The way I understand Dhatu means the five aggregate. In my native language we call Dhatu for Buddha’s or Arahant’s body parts. (egg: Tooth relics)
The issue is not what dhatu means in a contemporary language; rather, how dhatu is used in the suttas
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby SarathW » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:39 am

What about this then?
:)
===========================

Dhātu: 'elements', are the ultimate constituents of a whole.

I The 4 physical elements dhātu or mahā-bhūta popularly called earth, water, fire and wind, are to be understood as the primary qualities of matter. They are named in Pāli: pathavī-dhātu, āpo-dhātu, tejo-dhātu, and vāyo-dhātu In Vis.M XI, 2 the four elements are defined thus:,Whatever is characterized by hardness thaddha-lakkkhana is the earth or solid-element; by cohesion ābandhana or fluidity, the water-element; by heating paripācana the fire or heat-element; by strengthening or supporting vitthambhana the wind or motion-element. All four are present in every material object, though in varying degrees of strength. If, for instance, the earth element predominates, the material object is called 'solid', etc. - For the analysis of the 4 elements, see: dhātu-vavatthāna

II The 18 physical and mental elements that constitute the conditions or foundations of the process of perception, are:


1. visual organ eye 10. body-contact
2. auditory organ ear 11. visual-consciousness
3. olfactory organ nose 12. ear-consciousness
4. gustatory organ tongue 13. nose-consciousness
5. tactile organ body 14. tongue-consciousness
6. visible object 15. body-consciousness
7. sound or audible object 16. mind-element
mano-dhātu
8. odour or olfactive object 17. mental-object
dhamma-dhātu
9. gustative object 18. mind-consciousness-element
mano-viññāna-dhātu

1-10 are physical; 11-16 and 18 are mental; 17 may be either physical or mental. - 16 performs the function of directing āvajjana towards the object at the inception of a process of sense-consciousness; it further performs the function of receiving sampaticchana the sense-object. 18 performs, e.g., the function of investigation santīrana determining votthapana and registering tadārammana - for its other functions, see: Table I. For the 14 functions of consciousness, see: viññāna-kicca

Cf. M. 115; see: XIV and especially Vibh. II Guide p. 28f, Vis.M XV, 17ff.

Of the many further groupings of elements enumerated in M. 115, the best known is that of the 3 world-elements: the sense-world kāma-dhātu the fine-material world rūpa-dhātu the immaterial world arūpa-dhātu further the sixfold group: the solid, liquid, heat, motion, space, consciousness pathavī, āpo, tejo, vāyo, ākāsa, viññāna see: above I, described in M. 140; see also M. 112.

Dhātu-

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_d.htm
SarathW
 
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:58 am

SarathW wrote:What about this then?
:)
===========================

Dhātu: 'elements', are the ultimate constituents of a whole.

I The 4 physical elements dhātu or mahā-bhūta popularly called earth, water, fire and wind, are to be understood as the primary qualities of matter. They are named in Pāli: pathavī-dhātu, āpo-dhātu, tejo-dhātu, and vāyo-dhātu In Vis.M XI, 2 the four elements are defined thus:,Whatever is characterized by hardness thaddha-lakkkhana is the earth or solid-element; by cohesion ābandhana or fluidity, the water-element; by heating paripācana the fire or heat-element; by strengthening or supporting vitthambhana the wind or motion-element. All four are present in every material object, though in varying degrees of strength. If, for instance, the earth element predominates, the material object is called 'solid', etc. - For the analysis of the 4 elements, see: dhātu-vavatthāna

II The 18 physical and mental elements that constitute the conditions or foundations of the process of perception, are:


1. visual organ eye 10. body-contact
2. auditory organ ear 11. visual-consciousness
3. olfactory organ nose 12. ear-consciousness
4. gustatory organ tongue 13. nose-consciousness
5. tactile organ body 14. tongue-consciousness
6. visible object 15. body-consciousness
7. sound or audible object 16. mind-element
mano-dhātu
8. odour or olfactive object 17. mental-object
dhamma-dhātu
9. gustative object 18. mind-consciousness-element
mano-viññāna-dhātu

1-10 are physical; 11-16 and 18 are mental; 17 may be either physical or mental. - 16 performs the function of directing āvajjana towards the object at the inception of a process of sense-consciousness; it further performs the function of receiving sampaticchana the sense-object. 18 performs, e.g., the function of investigation santīrana determining votthapana and registering tadārammana - for its other functions, see: Table I. For the 14 functions of consciousness, see: viññāna-kicca

Cf. M. 115; see: XIV and especially Vibh. II Guide p. 28f, Vis.M XV, 17ff.

Of the many further groupings of elements enumerated in M. 115, the best known is that of the 3 world-elements: the sense-world kāma-dhātu the fine-material world rūpa-dhātu the immaterial world arūpa-dhātu further the sixfold group: the solid, liquid, heat, motion, space, consciousness pathavī, āpo, tejo, vāyo, ākāsa, viññāna see: above I, described in M. 140; see also M. 112.

Dhātu-

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_d.htm
To make it simpler, the suttas are a better source for discussion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby SarathW » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:29 am

tiltbillings wrote:
SarathW wrote:Hello friends,
The way I understand Dhatu means the five aggregate. In my native language we call Dhatu for Buddha’s or Arahant’s body parts. (egg: Tooth relics)
The issue is not what dhatu means in a contemporary language; rather, how dhatu is used in the suttas


How about this then:
:)
http://palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pi ... f-elements
SarathW
 
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:44 am

SarathW wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
SarathW wrote:Hello friends,
The way I understand Dhatu means the five aggregate. In my native language we call Dhatu for Buddha’s or Arahant’s body parts. (egg: Tooth relics)
The issue is not what dhatu means in a contemporary language; rather, how dhatu is used in the suttas


How about this then:
:)
http://palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pi ... f-elements
Yes, how about that.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18133&p=255647#p255627
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Previous

Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 7 guests