"The Deathless" (amata)

[tiltbillings]

Is that all you got out of that essay?

Ah, if only. That would surely be enough. But back to what you want me to get out of the essay. Which is?

I really do not understand what it is that you do not understand.

[tiltbillings]

Is that all you got out of that essay?

Ah, if only. That would surely be enough. But back to what you want me to get out of the essay. Which is?

Which is that one unbinds.

[kirk5a]

Which is that one unbinds.

via consciousness which is not dwelling upon form, feeling, fabrications, perceptions or consciousness.

Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within.

[tiltbillings]

Which is that one unbinds.

via consciousness which is not dwelling upon form, feeling, fabrications, perceptions or consciousness.

Well, the point is that one is no longer conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion. One is unbound -- nibbana-ized --, one is free of the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion.

"It is in this very fathom-long physical frame with its perceptions and mind, that, I declare, lies the world, and the arising of the world, and the cessation of the world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world." — SN 2.26

Keep in mind that this is the Four Noble Truth -- the whole of the Dhamma -- that is played out "in this very fathom-long physical frame with its perceptions and mind." No need for "an unborn" or "the Deathless" mysterious thingies here. We see, rather, the transformation of unbinding, the freedom from the conditioning that would impel us forward to birth and death and all that is in between.

[mikenz66]

I thought the essay was reasonably clear:

Now that nirvana has become an English word, it should have its own English verb to convey the sense of "being unbound" as well. At present, we say that a person "reaches" nirvana or "enters" nirvana, implying that nibbana is a place where you can go. But nirvana is most emphatically not a place. It's realized only when the mind stops defining itself in terms of place: of here, or there, or between the two.

"One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (doesn't cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

Mike

[tiltbillings]

I thought the essay was reasonably clear:

Not that I have read everything of Ven Thanissaro's, but of what I have read, this is, in my opinion, the best thing he has written, and it is quite clear.

[mikenz66]

Perhaps he's plagiarizing Ven Nananda...

It's realized only when the mind stops defining itself in terms of place: of here, or there, or between the two.

Mike

[tiltbillings]

Perhaps he's plagiarizing Ven Nananda...

It's realized only when the mind stops defining itself in terms of place: of here, or there, or between the two.

Mike

Or the Buddha, as in the Bahiya Sutta:


"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

[kirk5a]

Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Amata.

[kirk5a]

Perhaps he's plagiarizing Ven Nananda...

Or, perhaps he actually knows what he is talking about.

[kirk5a]

Or the Buddha, as in the Bahiya Sutta:


"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:

Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.

[tiltbillings]

Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:

Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.

Certainly does not change or challenge my point.

[kirk5a]

Certainly does not change or challenge my point.

"Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing" is probably amata, don't you think?

[tiltbillings]

Certainly does not change or challenge my point.

"Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing" is probably amata, don't you think?

Now it looks as if you have just turned amata into "the Deathless."

[Spiny O'Norman]

Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:

Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.

The last paragraph talks about freedom from the form and formless, presumably this means freedom from the 3 realms? In which case this seems to correlate with DO in cessation ( reverse ) mode, ie the cessation of becoming in the 3 realms leads to cessation of birth and therefore to cessation of death - or you could say freedom from becoming leads to freedom from birth and therefore freedom from death.

Spiny

[tiltbillings]

Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:

Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.

The last paragraph talks about freedom from the form and formless, presumably this means freedom from the 3 realms? In which case this seems to correlate with DO in cessation ( reverse ) mode, ie the cessation of becoming in the 3 realms leads to cessation of birth and therefore to cessation of death - or you could say freedom from becoming leads to freedom from birth and therefore freedom from death.

Spiny

Dinsdale would be proud of you.

[squarepeg]

Im Sofa King We Tod Did
When one sees this with understanding
that is the path to suffering



Who's on first?

[ground]

"The deathless" qua term and translation may be a manifestation of fear of death.

Kind regards

[Spiny O'Norman]

"The deathless" qua term and translation may be a manifestation of fear of death.

Kind regards

It's possible, but I still don't see the objection to a straightforward understanding based on the way DO is described in the suttas - when birth ceases, so does death.

Spiny

[daverupa]

a straightforward understanding based on the way DO is described

"Do not say so, Ananda..."