The Four Noble Truths

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The Four Noble Truths

Postby Jarmika » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:20 am

The Four Noble Truths:

1. All things and experiences are marked by suffering/ disharmony/ frustration (dukkha).

2. The arising of suffering/ disharmony/ frustration comes from desire/ craving/ clinging.

3. To achieve the cessation or end of suffering/ disharmony/ frustration, let go of desire/ craving/ clinging.

4. The way to achieve that cessation of suffering/ disharmony/ frustration, is walking the Eightfold Path.
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:31 am

Jarmika,

Have you posted this in order to begin a discussion? I took the liberty to move the post here in the chance that you were hoping to do so. Be well.

KB
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-Dhp. 183

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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby SilvioB » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:26 am

Hello Jarmika

I read your post and hope to ask you a question, if I can.

If all things and all experiences are marked by suffering/ disharmony/ frustration, how can a person achieve the cessation or end of suffering/ disharmony/ frustration?

Or is the cessation or end of suffering not a 'thing' and not an 'experience'?

Thank you

Silvio
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby Fede » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:21 am

SilvioB wrote:Hello Jarmika

I read your post and hope to ask you a question, if I can.

If all things and all experiences are marked by suffering/ disharmony/ frustration, how can a person achieve the cessation or end of suffering/ disharmony/ frustration?

By releasing the clinging, grasping and unwholesome attachment to 'things'.

(There is 'wholesome' attachment, but that too, must be released. Like the attachment to the Dhamma and the Buddha's guidance, for example....)

Or is the cessation or end of suffering not a 'thing' and not an 'experience'?


It is what you strive to achieve. But this desire too, should not be clung to.... ;)

Thank you. Silvio


No problem. That's my response, anyway.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby Buckwheat » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:46 am

This formulation is simplistic, but I have it in mind for friends who know nothing about Buddhism, will only listen to a very brief summary, and don't want any jargon. Kind feedback is appreciated.

There is suffering.
Suffering has causes.
You can choose nirvana.
To do that, master virtue, concentration, and wisdom.

1) The first line stimulates further inquiry into the domain of suffering, which is important because suffering must be understood in terms of one's own experience.

2) I also like to leave the cause of suffering unspecified because a) desire is good in the Four Bases of Success, and b) one must examine all things that lead to suffering, including the causes of clinging such as ignorance.

3) The third is my favorite: this is where the Buddha gives us hope and inspiration. You can have nirvana!! It will not be easy or quick, but it is yours for the taking right here and now.

4) Finally, I like to spell out the general form of the eightfold path so that the Four Noble Truths are a self contained set without expounding the entire Eightfold Path. This is where my signature comes from, where Calm = Concentration, Wise = Wisdom, and Love = Virtue. I think of love not as a sentimental emotion, but as actions such as right speech, action, and livelihood that spring from compassion and goodwill.
My signature used to be:
CALM
WISE
LOVE
Last edited by Buckwheat on Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby Jarmika » Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:44 pm

Buddha said:

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
:buddha1:
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:18 am

Jarmika wrote:Buddha said:

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
:buddha1:


The Lord Buddha was speaking to the Kalamas about how to regard various spiritual teachers and their teachings; he clearly wasn't speaking to lay-disciples.

See here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html

Sabbe satta sukhita hontu! :heart:
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby SilvioB » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:22 am

Jarmika wrote:Buddha said:

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
:buddha1:

Thank you, Jarmika

I will follow this advice of the Buddha because when i read your explanation of the Four Noble Truths it did not make sense to me and I did not believe it. Although I was interested in what was posted, I questioned it.

If all experiences are suffering, as was explained, then how can there be an experience of the end of suffering? If I believed what I read, the experience of the end of suffering would be marked by suffering/ disharmony/ frustration.

Buckwheat said we can choose between the experience of suffering and the experience of Nirvana. This sounds more possible.

Ciao

Silvio
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:35 am

Salve Silvio,

May I suggest some other reading if you're interested in learning more about the 4 noble Truths and the Buddhadhamma. Excuse me if I am wrong but if your mother tounge is Italian you may be interested in the following explanation:

Le quattro nobili verità

Per aiutare i suoi interlocutori a capire come la concezione ordinaria della vita sia inadeguata, il Buddha parlava di dukkha (termine che con qualche approssimazione si può rendere con "insoddisfazione", "inappagante"). Una definizione sintetica del suo insegnamento, a cui il Buddha stesso ricorreva di frequente, ce lo propone come "la verità circa dukkha, la sua origine, la sua fine e il sentiero che porta alla fine di dukkha". Con l'espressione "le quattro nobili verità", si allude appunto al nucleo fondamentale del messaggio del Buddha, una sorta di modello da applicare e verificare nel contesto dell'esperienza personale.

La prima nobile verità: c'è dukkha

La vita come normalmente la conosciamo include necessariamente una certa dose di esperienze spiacevoli, di cui malattia, dolore fisico e disagio psicologico sono gli esempi più ovvi. Anche nelle società economicamente più avanzate, ansia, tensione fisica e mentale, demotivazione o un sentimento di inadeguatezza esistenziale sono comuni fattori di sofferenza.

A questo si aggiunge la limitatezza e la precarietà delle esperienze piacevoli; ad esempio, si può sperimentare dukkha in seguito alla perdita di una persona cara, o alla cocente delusione inflittaci da un amico. Potremmo accorgerci, inoltre, che a lungo andare non è possibile alleviare questi sentimenti spiacevoli attraverso le nostre strategie abituali, come ad esempio la ricerca di gratificazione, di maggiore successo o di una nuova relazione. Questo perché la fonte di dukkha è un bisogno di natura interiore.

E' una sorta di nostalgia, un desiderio profondo di comprensione, di pace e di armonia. La natura in ultima analisi interiore o spirituale di questo bisogno rende inefficaci i tentativi di appagarlo aggiungendo alla nostra vita oggetti piacevoli. Finché sussiste la motivazione a ricercare l'appagamento in ciò che è transitorio e vulnerabile - e basta un minimo di introspezione per accorgerci di quanto siano vulnerabili il nostro corpo e i nostri sentimenti - saremo soggetti alla sofferenza della delusione e della perdita.

"Essere uniti a ciò che non piace è dukkha, essere separati da ciò che piace è dukkha, non ottenere ciò che si desidera è dukkha. In breve, le attività abituali e automatiche del corpo e della mente sono dukkha."

La seconda nobile verità: dukkha ha un'origine.

L'intuizione del Buddha fu capire che questa motivazione distorta è in sostanza l'origine dell'insoddisfazione esistenziale. E perché? Perché continuando a cercare la felicità in ciò che è transitorio, perdiamo quello che la vita potrebbe offrirci se fossimo più attenti e più ricettivi spiritualmente. Mancando di attingere, per ignoranza, al nostro potenziale spirituale, ci lasciamo guidare da sensazioni e stati d'animo. Quando però la consapevolezza ci rivela che si tratta di un'abitudine, non della nostra vera natura, ci rendiamo conto che il cambiamento è possibile.

La terza nobile verità: dukkha può avere fine.

Una volta compresa la seconda verità, la terza ne discende naturalmente, se siamo capaci di "lasciar andare" le nostre abitudini egocentriche consce e inconsce. Quando smettiamo di reagire aggressivamente o di metterci sulla difensiva, quando rispondiamo alla vita liberi da pregiudizi o idee fisse, la mente ritrova la sua naturale armonia interna. Le abitudini e le opinioni per cui la vita appare ostile o inadeguata vengono intercettate e disattivate.

La quarta nobile verità: c'è una via per mettere fine a dukkha.

Si tratta di principi generali in base a cui si può vivere la vita attimo per attimo in una prospettiva spirituale. Non è possibile "lasciar andare" se non attraverso la coltivazione della nostra natura spirituale. In virtù di una pratica appropriata, invece, la mente comincia a rivelare la sua spontanea inclinazione per il Nibbana. Non serve altro che la saggezza di riconoscere che c'è una via, e che esistono gli strumenti per realizzarla. Tradizionalmente, la via viene descritta come il "Nobile ottuplice sentiero". Il simbolo della ruota, così comune nell'iconografia buddhista, è una rappresentazione dell'ottuplice sentiero, in cui ciascun fattore sostiene ed è sostenuto da tutti gli altri. La pratica buddhista consiste nel coltivare questi fattori, ossia: retta concezione, retta intenzione, retta parola, retta azione, retti mezzi di sussistenza, retto sforzo, retta attenzione e retta concentrazione.

Sono definiti "retti" in quanto implicano uno stile di vita che è in accordo con la virtù, la meditazione e la saggezza, piuttosto che prendere le mosse da una posizione egocentrica. Dunque è una via che è "retta" in relazione tanto agli altri che a se stessi.

"Chi ha comprensione e saggezza non concepisce di arrecare danno a se stesso o a un altro, o di arrecare danno a entrambi. Piuttosto, egli è intento al proprio bene, al bene dell'altro, al bene di entrambi, al bene del mondo intero."
Source: http://santacittarama.altervista.org/buddhismo.htm

If, not, may I suggest the following: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html

Let me know if I may be of any assistance! Be well! :heart:
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby Buckwheat » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:51 pm

SilvioB wrote:If all experiences are suffering, as was explained, then how can there be an experience of the end of suffering?


Be careful with any concept of Nirvana. There is a reason that the suttas do not actually spend much time talking about or describing nirvana... it is indescribable. For this reason, I try to remind myself every time I start to get a concept of Nirvana that it must be wrong. If nirvana was an experience, Buddha would have said so. If it was a state of mind, he would have said so. Basically, nirvana is always defined by things that it is not: not suffering, not conditioned, not annihilation, etc.

So your question of the "experience of the end of suffering" is a bit misguided, although I struggle with this myself and cannot help you much more than to point out that you and I are both framing our wisdom in the wrong light. I hope this helps tear away some delusion.

I was listening to a recorded Ajaan Passano dharma talk this morning and he said that Ajaan Chah used to describe "impermanence" with the word "uncertainty", meaning that all the things we know and experience are really uncertain. I mention this because I have been working on becoming comfortable with my uncertainty of the nature of nirvana. Any time there is a concept of nirvana I try to see through that concept because I know that nirvana goes beyond concepts or else the Buddha would have given us a concept for nirvana. Instead, I have faith that if I work on my virtue, concentration and insight, I will eventually realize nirvana for myself.

I have this faith because I have taken refuge in the Triple Gem. Before that time, I only had confusion and doubt about the Buddhadharma. I took refuge after testing some of the more graspable Buddhist teachings in my life and seeing that the Buddhist approach is honest, practical, and powerful with benefits both immediately and in the distant future. That is the basis for my faith in the Four Noble Truths, which is the basis of my ability to accept and analyze my uncertainty so that I may move beyond to nirvana.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby SilvioB » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:48 am

Buckwheat wrote:So your question of the "experience of the end of suffering" is a bit misguided.

Hello Buck Wheat

I pursuited more investigation of the Four Noble Truths in Wikipedia. I find a link to Buddha's original stanzas. It say Nirvana is an object of knowledge.

I think my questioning is not misguided. I think following "faith" as you say and talking at me, like you are a teacher, may cause confusion.

Nirvana is explained as contentment, calm and not agitated.

Ciao

Silvio

First there is the knowledge of the steadfastness of the Dhamma (dependent co-arising), after which there is the knowledge of Unbinding.

The ending of the fermentations is for one who knows & sees.

Consciousness, thus unestablished, undeveloped, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it stays firm. Owing to its staying firm, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within himself.

One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tml#second
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby Buckwheat » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:14 am

I did not say you are misguided, or question your character. Also, I am certainly not enlightened, so I apologize if I was talking at you as if I am a teacher. I do, however, see a flaw with one line of your post (it's a mistake we all struggle with until we become arahants, and the rest of your post was excellent :thumbsup:). My main point is to be careful using words and concepts to gain intellectual understanding of nirvana. They are so often misleading.

As for faith, it is central to Buddhism: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el065.html

In this essay, Bhikkhu Bodhi describes the Four Noble Truths as a series of tasks: understand suffering, abandon the causes of suffering, realize nirvana, and develop the practice. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_20.html

And one more neat one where nirvana is described as an action to be performed: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... averb.html
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby Gena1480 » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:33 pm

The Noble Truth of Suffering (dukkha), monks, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation from the pleasant is suffering, not to receive what one desires is suffering — in brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering.

The Noble Truth of the Origin (cause) of Suffering is this: It is this craving (thirst) which produces re-becoming (rebirth) accompanied by passionate greed, and finding fresh delight now here, and now there, namely craving for sense pleasure, craving for existence and craving for non-existence (self-annihilation).

The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering is this: It is the complete cessation of that very craving, giving it up, relinquishing it, liberating oneself from it, and detaching oneself from it.

The Noble Truth of the Path Leading to the Cessation of Suffering is this: It is the Noble Eightfold Path, and nothing else, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.[2]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby squarepeg » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:56 pm

In this dharma talk by Ven. Dr. Mettanando:

http://dharmagames.org/dharmaMedia/dharmaMedia3.html

heres what Ven. Dr. Mettanando has to say about "dukkha"
Buddhism uses the word dukkha as a cliche for a long time. when english speaking people use the term "dukkha" they dont know what word to translate and so it is translated to them as suffering, pain, dissatisfaction. but understanding of dukkah is very important. Dukkha comes from the word in prakirt language, origionally it was used umong craftsmen who work with carts and tools to discribe a situation when two parts that are supposted to fit together fail to do so.the object failed to fit in.this situation is called dukkha, in english idiom there is a saying "to put a square peg into a round hole" or "to put a round peg into a square hole" either of them are dukkha.


sry for spelling, i listened and typed at the same time.

this is a very good dharma talk imo
"Yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam" — as we sow, so shall we reap
Maranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby upasiaka » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:08 pm

Theravada is very good.
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby squarepeg » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:33 pm

upasiaka wrote:Theravada is very good.

:goodpost:
"Yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam" — as we sow, so shall we reap
Maranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Postby locrian » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:38 pm

Silvio asked a very good question (IMO) and it made me laugh (which I enjoy). If all = suffering then nothing does not...sound logic to my way of thinking at any rate :)
I often imagine that it's as simple as this; Suffering exists; deal with it or change your mind!
(and there seems to be infinite ways to do that)
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