Help! How to raise a child in an inter-faith marriage?

[fig tree]

At least, she knows that one of her parent thinks differently.

I don't have any children, but it seems to me that this is very helpful.

I remember fundamentalist Christianity as a thing that encouraged us to make a real full-court-press to get people to believe its tenets, and this makes me uneasy about what I read here. But the kind of confusion I had as a child was only possible because of lack of real familiarity with anything else.

Fig Tree

[Kim OHara]

The people I meet at that church, compared to many of the atheists that I know and am related to, are generally happier, are more caring and loving, and are more giving. And frankly, I find those qualities to be highly desirable to be around.

Maybe a tiny bit off-topic, but I teach in a Catholic school and have the same feelings about most of the people there: on average, they are nicer people than those in equivalent secular (state-run) schools.


Kim

[Goofaholix]

Maybe a tiny bit off-topic, but I teach in a Catholic school and have the same feelings about most of the people there: on average, they are nicer people than those in equivalent secular (state-run) schools.

As a matter of interest my neices in Thailand all go to a Catholic school. It's not uncommon in Thailand for Buddhist parents to send their children to Catholic schools and not think anything of it, not be worried about their children getting indoctrinated. In Thailand religion is not seen as a black and white thing, people are much more relaxed about religion, they are Buddhist because they are Thai if for no other reason.

Occasionaly they've mixed up Christian and Buddhist terminology but I've never gotten the impression they are becoming any less Buddhist because of their exposure to education with a different world view.

[puppha]

As a matter of interest my neices in Thailand all go to a Catholic school. It's not uncommon in Thailand for Buddhist parents to send their children to Catholic schools and not think anything of it, not be worried about their children getting indoctrinated. In Thailand religion is not seen as a black and white thing, people are much more relaxed about religion, they are Buddhist because they are Thai if for no other reason.

Occasionaly they've mixed up Christian and Buddhist terminology but I've never gotten the impression they are becoming any less Buddhist because of their exposure to education with a different world view.

I never thought out religious differences would be an issue until my wife told me last year that she doesn't want me to bring our daughter to the Vihara or to teach her Buddhist teachings. When I met my wife 9 years ago, she was Christian, and I was essentially Buddhist. Until that time, I never thought our religious differences were a problem.
But from the moment she became born-again/extremist/fundamentalist, things have changed. Before that, she even told me a few times she was proud I was Buddhist. Now I am doomed to the Eternal Flames of Hell for not accepting Jesus! (But she recently moderated her position slightly)
I am OK that my daughter receives Christian teachings because her mother is Christian, but I have a problem with fundamentalism, extremism, and generally speaking with the disparaging of rational thinking and investigation. Also, I would agree on one point with Richard Dawkins and Ajahn Brahms: religious indoctrination of children is a form of child abuse, because they are discouraged to think for themselves, enquire and ask questions.

I would also add a little reminder. There are very significant differences of doctrines and behavious between the various Christian denominations. In particular, Catholics and Evanglical Protestants are diametrically opposed to the point that each other consider they are the only "true" Christians and the others are heretics doomed to Hell. So it is wrong to assume that if something is true for Catholics, it must be true also for other Christian denominations and vice-versa.

The people I meet at that church, compared to many of the atheists that I know and am related to, are generally happier, are more caring and loving, and are more giving.

My personal experience is a bit different. I found that the few Christians I know are generally hypocritical and do not uphold their proclaimed values of love and compassion. As for their donations, I think it is generally used to finance the lifestyle of the pastor and his/her immediate entourage. The pastor of my wife's Church has a huge BMW (he may have paid it himself, but he has a very menial job); on the other hand, the Church had to relocate because they had a unpaid bill of GBP5,000 for electricity... Also I think they are a very closed group, they think deeply in terms of "us and them" and tend to meet and do things only within themselves and for themselves (except if it is to evangelise the heathens). I have not seen a single instance where they did some charitable works without trying to convert people.
They seem happier, but when I try to look deeper, I see fear. Essentially fear that their beliefs are wrong. I see also a lot of anxiety: anxiety for signs of their God, anxiety that the Devil will hit them, anxiety when heatens do not believe their Good News when they try to evangelise people. But I might be wrong... I also think that other Christian denominations are probably quite different; it looks to me that at the end of the day, the Catholics are more open (and this obviously make them heretics in the eyes of conservative Christians).

I know people who are Muslim, Atheist, Agnostic, Hindu, Catholic, Evangelical Christian, etc. and what I see is that in all these groups, there are good and bad people, happy and unhappy people, caring and uncaring people, etc. The bottom line is that I think my daughter should be exposed to a variety of beliefs and lifestyles so she can make informed decisions.



With Metta

[Kim OHara]

There are very significant differences of doctrines and behavious between the various Christian denominations. In particular, Catholics and Evanglical Protestants are diametrically opposed to the point that each other consider they are the only "true" Christians and the others are heretics doomed to Hell. So it is wrong to assume that if something is true for Catholics, it must be true also for other Christian denominations and vice-versa.

Yes, I know that is true, and to that extent my experiences and Goofaholix's can't guide you. There are also differences within denominations, e.g. some Catholics are much more rigid in their beliefs than others.
And, as you say, a lot of the fierce clinging to doctrine is a symptom of fear.
Where that leaves you, I guess, is back where you were before this little detour but with perhaps a little more confidence that not all Christianity, and especially not all Christians, is/are bad.


Kim

[Hickersonia]

My job as a father, as I see it, is not to teach my son Buddhism, nor is it to refute monotheism. My duty to him is to teach him to be empathic, loving, and some level of non-attachment in order live a happier, fuller life. If him learning about Jesus gets him further down that path, than I think that's great. Better than the materialism, violence, and sex that seems to be more of the norm in the US these days.

That is basically how I'm approaching my family-life. My wife is Christian and we've raised my son Christian up until my recent "conversion" (so to speak) and I have no intention of telling my son that he's wrong to have adopted those views. He knows something has changed -- thinks my Buddha statue is "cute" and has said that I'm "really getting into that Buddha stuff" -- but I don't go out of my way to convert him or anything. I'm content to simply be certain that the common values of compassion and morality are properly conveyed.

Fortunately, my wife and I have managed to communicate to some degree on these matters and we seem to have a mutual understanding. That said, I do think that she's much more intent on teaching Christianity to our children than she has ever been before... I suppose that should be expected though, huh?

[darkestmatter]

I hope you don't mind me wading in on this but I can only speak from accompanying my best friend at school to her Christian events etc. When we were kids she became interested in Christianity and it ramped up into a fervent fundamentalism until she was asking not to take part in science lessons speaking about the big bang or any discussion about Charles Darwin who she kept saying was nothing more than a fraud. I'm pleased you haven't tried to pull your child in the opposite direction to your wife but I would be very wary indeed. Indoctrination I consider incredibly wrong. No child should be forced to think one thing over another and I believe that they should be left to make their own choices and be offered the opportunity to learn more if THEY want to.

It is a little worrying about her trying to attack Buddhism in a insidious way by telling your daughter things in private. There was an interesting ebook I read called "A Buddhist Critique of Fundamentalist Christianity". I wouldn't necessarily suggest giving it to your wife or attempting to read it to your daughter but I do think you need to have a really serious talk and explain just how damaging she is being. I'm absolutely sure that she will not want to speak about it but you really need to make sure she at least hears you. She cannot forbid you from taking her to the Vihara and if she does attempt to do so then simply say that if that's the case then being her father she's no longer allowed to go to Church either.

I feel for you. I really do. Fundamentalist Christians are really no fun at all and the amount of times I would be at an event and be chatting to someone to then have them simply turn to full on proselytizing was ridiculous. You should never have to be so virilent in pushing your religion on someone else. It's not on and tends to warp people.

[puppha]

Dear Hayden,

You are welcome to comment of course. I recently read the ebook you mentioned. It's very good, it reveals a lot of flaws in Christian beliefs, using mainly the bible itself! Unfortunately, a few of his interpretations from the bible are not entirely correct. But it really gives a lot of insights and helps you to answer/understand a Christian fundamentalist!

The real issue here is fundamentalism. Strong beliefs in 6000 years old Earth, faith healings, impeding armageddon, balck and white thinking, etc. This is really taxing to live with someone like that. Fortunately, she recently stopped talking too much about those things to me, I think she realised she is just erecting a wall between us by doing that.

I now tend to see it a bit like someone afflicted with paranoiac schizophrenia. Someone may for example be certain that he has been adbucted by aliens who implanted spying devices in his body before being sent back to earth, and the CIA knows that and spies on him days and nights. You can say whatever you want to such a person, he will stick to his beliefs. You can show him a scan of his body showing there are no alien devices and he will tell you they don't appear on human instruments, etc. If you find an argument he can't counter, the last line of defense is to assume that a trick has been set up to fool him (and that you are probably on the alien's side, BTW).
That's exactly the same for Christians. The bible contains so many contradictions it's difficult to list them all. On almost every page of a bible, there are footnotes stating there are some doubts about certain words, or that some early manuscripts have something different, etc. Yet those funny born-agains just can't see that and think there are no errors in the bible.
Science has proven that the structure of the brain is not fixed, wires between neurons can change and the whole wiring of the brain can be modified if given enough time. I think this is what happens for fundies, they just convince themselves they are right for long enough to wire their brain in a different way, and then their brain just either ignores the evidence or immediately constucts a "rational" explanation for it (i.e. compatible with their beliefs).

She once started a discussion about creation vs evolution. That was quite a debate, and she explicitely mentioned at one point that she was happy to have creationist websites and TV programs so that she can teach the alternative to our daughter! Gasp... I have to admit I had a chill in the back when she said that... But I am getting myself informed, especially reading throught the EvC forum: http://www.evcforum.net/. It is VERY scientific and hard to follow for lay people, but for what I can see, any single creationist argument has been rebutted. It is a very good forum because both sides can post freely, and it because very easy to see which side brings the scientific, evidence-based arguments and which side falters in the dark after a few pages of posts on a given subject.

This whole turn of event had this merit: I started to investigate deeper into the origins of Christianity, the bible, the psychology of religions, politics, the manipulations of the corporate world, the vast interventionism of western countries into so-called developing countries and Christian missionary activites. If my wife didn't turn fundamentalist, I would probably never got interested in those.

With Metta

[puppha]

I forgot to mention! 2 days ago, I was doing my meditation early morning in my office. My daughter woke up, came and saw I was meditating, so she waited outside. I told her to come in and asked her if she wants to meditate.
She said yes, so we did a bit of meditation together. I did a little guided meditation on metta bhavana, I think she appreciated it!

Sadhu!


With Metta

[darkestmatter]

I'm glad that she's realising by herself that having the CHOICE is what matters. Evidently she can tell that that is what matters and if you keep it up she's going to rebel against her mother and ask her to stop trying to force things upon her. Creationism I find utterly bonkers and silly so I never really manage to have a debate about it as I normally begin to smirk which then turns into a belly laugh when someone says that evolution is ridiculous. I'm pleased you manage to keep it level as you're a better man than I. Keep doing what you're doing and I'm quite sure that just as Buddhism says that counter anger with love, it will always win out in the end.

[Bakmoon]

I forgot to mention! 2 days ago, I was doing my meditation early morning in my office. My daughter woke up, came and saw I was meditating, so she waited outside. I told her to come in and asked her if she wants to meditate.
She said yes, so we did a bit of meditation together. I did a little guided meditation on metta bhavana, I think she appreciated it!

Sadhu!


With Metta

This is the right way to go about it in my humble opinion. Like Darkestmatter said, it's all about choice. If you don't try to push Buddhism on your daughter, but just make it available to her when she is interested, Buddhism will be much more appealing to her. Just keep presenting the parts of Buddhism that are the easiest for a child to understand and she will decide to become (or not to become) a Buddhist latter on. The best way to teach her that I can think of are just some of the basic bits of the Gradual Training laid out by the Buddha. Traditionally they are the teachings on generosity, virtue, heaven, drawbacks, renunciation, and the four noble truths, but I'd just focus on generosity, virtue, drawbacks, and renunciation, because when presented in the right way, they are seen as universal truths rather than religious truths.

You could present it by talking about how being kind to others and not harming other living beings leads to happiness, and how material things don't lead to real happiness; that true happiness comes from within. Just stick to these sorts of general life lessons, and your daughter will benefit from it even if she never becomes Buddhist because she will have valuable life lessons from her father.

[Kim OHara]

Hi, puppha,
Some of the things some of us were talking about on the Secular Buddhism thread http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=12380 are relevant here. Particularly, IMO, something that bounces off Bakmoon's comment that ...

The best way to teach her that I can think of are just some of the basic bits of the Gradual Training laid out by the Buddha. Traditionally they are the teachings on generosity, virtue, heaven, drawbacks, renunciation, and the four noble truths, but I'd just focus on generosity, virtue, drawbacks, and renunciation, because when presented in the right way, they are seen as universal truths rather than religious truths.

To me, any religious truth that isn't universal is probably not true.
Love and compassion - yes.
Devas and creationism - probably not.
And you will see that focusing on shared ideas will work best for all concerned.


Kim

[Aloka]

I just thought I'd mention that at Buddhanet there's a Buddhist studies section for children of different ages.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bud ... s_syll.htm


and also there's a 'Kids Page' on the site with various activities.

[manas]

Before that, she even told me a few times she was proud I was Buddhist. Now I am doomed to the Eternal Flames of Hell for not accepting Jesus! (But she recently moderated her position slightly)

Yes, due to a shortage of coal in hell, they are now only moderately frying sinners, rather than roasting them. It's a new austerity measure.

Seriously though, puppha, you have my sympathy. The fear of eternal hell-fire - most irrationally, on the basis of the actions of just one lifetime - actually harmed my emotional well-being as a child, and only as an adult did I decisively purge the last bit of that belief from my mind. If, somehow, you can even just prevent your dear little one from acquiring that particular fear, you will have done well.

[puppha]

Dear Bakmoon,

This is the right way to go about it in my humble opinion. Like Darkestmatter said, it's all about choice. If you don't try to push Buddhism on your daughter, but just make it available to her when she is interested, Buddhism will be much more appealing to her. Just keep presenting the parts of Buddhism that are the easiest for a child to understand and she will decide to become (or not to become) a Buddhist latter on. The best way to teach her that I can think of are just some of the basic bits of the Gradual Training laid out by the Buddha. Traditionally they are the teachings on generosity, virtue, heaven, drawbacks, renunciation, and the four noble truths, but I'd just focus on generosity, virtue, drawbacks, and renunciation, because when presented in the right way, they are seen as universal truths rather than religious truths.

You could present it by talking about how being kind to others and not harming other living beings leads to happiness, and how material things don't lead to real happiness; that true happiness comes from within. Just stick to these sorts of general life lessons, and your daughter will benefit from it even if she never becomes Buddhist because she will have valuable life lessons from her father.

That's very sensible, I'll follow this advice. Thank you for your input!

The fear of eternal hell-fire - most irrationally, on the basis of the actions of just one lifetime - actually harmed my emotional well-being as a child, and only as an adult did I decisively purge the last bit of that belief from my mind. If, somehow, you can even just prevent your dear little one from acquiring that particular fear, you will have done well.

Actually, there are quite a few (ex) catholics in my weekly dhamma class. Those who are just beginning on the buddhist path are really struggling with their past indoctrination. This is sad...

This week-end, she invited a born-again christian at our home. On Sunday, just before they were all going to church, I was upstairs in my little office and I heard the guy downstairs saying to my daughter that science proved the existence of god. I decided not to go downstairs to give my point of view because the guy had been nice all these days and he probably just said that without really knowing what he was talking about (and he clearly left school very early). So I waited for my daughter to come upstairs, then I told her that science didn't prove the existence of god and science didn't prove the inexistence of god either.

Then my wife asked me what did I say to our daughter, and I answered. She got upset, saying that I am trying to convince her that god does not exists, etc. I replied that this guy said a statement that is not factual and I rectifed that with a statement that is factual. Then she got really upset, saying "what's the use of saying that to her while her mother tells me she believes in god", how can I not see Jesus making miracles, I should use my intelligence to see that god exists (!), etc.

I kept quiet and she calmed down a bit, then she started some discussions about how buddhism spread, she wanted to convince me that buddhism is as evangelical as christianity She mentionned that christians are persecuted in Burma and Sri Lanka. I explained to her what is the actual political situation in Burma, that many communities are persecuted there (she didn't know that a military junta was in power, that monks walked in the street in 2007 and were imprisoned and killed for that, that ethnic minorities were persectued in the borders of Burma, etc.) Then she asked me if there is a military junta in power in Sri Lanka!!! She really does not know what she is talking about.

It's so sad.
A couple of days later, I told her that I can't understand that if a stranger tells unfactual statement to a child, the mother approves and that if the father of the child tells factual statements the same mother disapproves. I also used a lot of what she said during that day to show her how her mind works: how she modifies what I say and put words in my mouth, how she ignores some information, how she applies double-standards, how she believes without questioning the smallest piece of information provided that it goes with her beliefs, etc. I never criticised christianity per se, yet I received a block response of bitterness and anger. She just felt attacked in her beliefs and just defended herself without addressing any of the point I made.

I thought I could help her open her eyes on some of her behaviours, but that's hopeless. I thought because it would not touch her religion directly, she might be a bit more open, but not at all. I think she is now more closed-minded than ever, she can't even see obvious flaws in the way she thinks.

So I realise the hard way that you can't change someone, especially if that someone is entrenched in strong beliefs. Things that are absolutely obvious to an outsider are completely transformed in the mind of such a person. Just an example: if I say that science didn't prove the existence of god, that means I am teaching that god does not exist...

Anyway, life goes on! I am much more detached on these issues now compared to half a year ago!

This morning, my daughter came to meditate with me again!
Sadhu!

The truth is, I don't even care if my daughter wants to stay christian, become a buddhist, muslim, atheist or whatever. I just want her to grow up knowing why she is making certain choices and why she believes what she believes.