Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

"Compelled" is the only word that comes to mind.

How about “Hell-bent” ?

Wordweb: “Recklessly determined, hell-bent on winning.”

[Ceisiwr]

It is not possible, Retro. Rebirth deniers cannot simply ignore a thread about rebirth. They are compelled to argue about it. They cannot abide the idea that Buddhists teach something they dislike so much.

Strange... I do not like teachings on Buddha-nature, yet I do not scour internet forums looking for Buddha-nature threads to start debates in. I simply do not read those threads and instead read other threads. You would think someone who does not like teachings on rebirth would see a thread about being reborn into hell and decide that is not a thread for them. "Compelled" is the only word that comes to mind.

This is wrong on two accounts, first of all it goes with the assumption that there is a dislike or aversion from rebirth by the other person and secondly the posts i have made have nothing to do with denying rebirth since this a speculative view the same as rebirth affirmation is


Metta

[kc2dpt]

"Compelled" is the only word that comes to mind.

How about “Hell-bent” ?

[pink_trike]

It is not possible, Retro. Rebirth deniers cannot simply ignore a thread about rebirth. They are compelled to argue about it. They cannot abide the idea that Buddhists teach something they dislike so much.

Strange... I do not like teachings on Buddha-nature, yet I do not scour internet forums looking for Buddha-nature threads to start debates in. I simply do not read those threads and instead read other threads. You would think someone who does not like teachings on rebirth would see a thread about being reborn into hell and decide that is not a thread for them. "Compelled" is the only word that comes to mind.

...and secondly the posts i have made have nothing to do with denying rebirth since this a speculative view the same as rebirth affirmation is
Metta

Entrenched defenders of post-mortem rebirth rarely respond directly to these kinds of statements, or to the view from which they emerge, just as traditionalist Christianists very carefully (often mercurially) step around any questions/dialogue about the actual existence of their fantasy heaven/hell realms and tend to reject any direct discussion re: the re-birthing of hell/heaven in the moment. It's in the good book, that's good enough - dynamic interpretation and real-time application is a scary thing when the the only accepted options are literal, extreme hells or literal heavens...those are high stakes - one false step and you're a crispy critter in chains for eons. They aren't able to see that chasing after good heavens or running from bad hells is runaway speculation (as is the literal interpretation itself)...these places are very real to them (right now, in this moment) and they hang on tight to that leaky old raft. It really is no different from the Santa Claus parable - being good will result in toys, being bad will result in a lump of coal - another story meant to teach children a basic life lesson with the understanding that once they are an adult they will retain the lesson and understand the lesson's container as skillful means. It's more comfortable/safe for them to apply that same polarized, dualistic view to the discourse - literal post-mortem = right/non-speculative/good, re-birthing in the moment = wrong/speculative/bad. Literal = correct view, metaphoric = wrong view...a sharply parsed,black and white, comforting way to structure the structureless that is threatened by looking it spang in the eye and seeing it for what it is - just mind states in the moment no matter where or when the mind flows. The irony is that they are creating hellish hells and sugar-coated alluring heavenly mind-states right here, right now - and then tormenting themselves with them. That's their business, but for some reason they really need everyone to also literally believe in their private dualistic fantasies. There is an expansive middle way in between the poles.

[Ceisiwr]

There is an expansive middle way in between the poles.

Indeed, the Buddhas Middle way beyond all speculative views

[Ngawang Drolma.]

At my cozy little site I started a thread called, "Can you trust your own eyes?" and I posted some optical illusions.
There was a reason I did that besides the entertainment factor.

[Ngawang Drolma.]

Hello all,

How wonderful to think that this life is all there is! When things get too much, or life is too painful, or boring - just ... take pills, drive off a cliff, use a handgun, hang yourself, step out in front of a car ... and it's all over, the light goes out. What an easy solution. Except ... that's not what the Buddha taught.

Dhamma Without Rebirth?
by
Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_06.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris

[tiltbillings]

Craig: Indeed, the Buddhas Middle way beyond all speculative views

See me response in the great rebirth debate

[notself]

I thought I would step in here and point out that although anyone can go to hell, "I" cannot. At death the khandhas that make up the illusion of "me" cease. The only thing reborn is the process of life itself.

My apologies, I have lost the source of the quote.

Bhikkhu Samahita  Sri Lanka

After death what moves to the next life? Is it consciousness?

No! since consciousness arise & cease right there, it cannot move anywhere!
It is not continuous, but contiguous discrete states as pearls on a string.
The prior moment of consciousness contains the properties that condition
the arising of the next moment of consciousness! These inherent properties are
mainly craving for (conscious) sensing and craving for new becoming into being.
If these cravings are present in the rebirth-linking moment of consciousness, then
the next moment of consciousness will arise immediately after the death moment,
but now in another location and body, which qualities (or lack of) indeed also are
conditioned by properties within the rebirth-linking moment of consciousness…

So what actually passes on is CAUSALITY: That is conditioning factors or forces!
Nothing more! No form, feeling, perception, construction, or consciousness passes on.
No Self, I, Me, Body, Identity, or Ego passes on, because they never really existed in
the first place, so how can they ever then pass on?!?

IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss rebirth seperately from the teachings of anatta.

Just some thoughts.

[kc2dpt]

IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss rebirth seperately from the teachings of anatta.

So the Buddha wasted time?

Punna: "Venerable sir, this naked dog-duty ascetic Seniya does what is hard to do: he eats his food when it is thrown on the ground. That dog duty has long been taken up and practiced by him. What will be his destination? What will be his future course?"

Buddha: "Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs. But if his view is such as this: 'By this virtue or duty or asceticism or religious life I shall become a (great) god or some (lesser) god,' that is wrong view in his case. Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb. So, Punna, if his dog duty is perfected, it will lead him to the company of dogs; if it is not, it will lead him to hell."

(MN 57)

[Ceisiwr]

Those people already held a view of rebirth, he was teaching them in terms they would understand


Metta

[Jechbi]

Hi Peter,

IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss rebirth seperately from the teachings of anatta.

So the Buddha wasted time?

I agree with your underlying point, but in all fairness, this teaching in the Kukkuravatika Sutta that you quote does not appear to have been offered separately from the teachings of anatta. It also includes this:

"What is neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening that leads to the exhaustion of kamma? As to these (three kinds of kamma), any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark with dark ripening, any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is bright with bright ripening, and any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark-and bright with dark-and-bright ripening: this is called neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening.

Metta

[kc2dpt]

this teaching that you quote does not appear to have been offered separately from the teachings of anatta. It also includes this:

I do not see any mention of anatta in the bit you quoted, nor in the rest of that sutta. Care to clarify?

[Ngawang Drolma.]

Any kind of wholesome kamma will change your mental state immediately. Practise generosity, reaffirm your determination to observe morality, practise meditation, pay homage to virtuous monks or to a Buddha image or pagoda, do something to help others, read a Dhamma book, discuss the Dhamma, etc.

Doing wholesome kamma is a practical way to get out of the hell of depression and enter the heaven of non-remorse. If you make wholesome kamma a lifelong habit you need not worry about falling into hell.

[notself]

IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss rebirth seperately from the teachings of anatta.

So the Buddha wasted time?

Punna: "Venerable sir, this naked dog-duty ascetic Seniya does what is hard to do: he eats his food when it is thrown on the ground. That dog duty has long been taken up and practiced by him. What will be his destination? What will be his future course?"

Buddha: "Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs. But if his view is such as this: 'By this virtue or duty or asceticism or religious life I shall become a (great) god or some (lesser) god,' that is wrong view in his case. Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb. So, Punna, if his dog duty is perfected, it will lead him to the company of dogs; if it is not, it will lead him to hell."

(MN 57)

Oh, come on now, you know I was referring to this thread and not to the Buddha.

Are you suggesting that the self of the Dog-duty acetic is actually reborn?