The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:What I'm saying here is that you don't need to prove or disprove the ontological existence or non-existence of atman or cake.
In looking back over this exchange, I do not see that Mike was trying to do that.
Neither do I. It just seemed a timely opportunity to make the comment for anyone to whom it may be of interest. I know for quite some time I was under the impression the purpose of the anatta teaching was to prove the non-existence of the self - others may have laboured under similar misconceptions too... especially when we sometimes see the term "no-self" bandied around, in place of "not-self".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,

I'm still a bit confused since you appear to be contradicting yourself in this discussion.
retrofuturist wrote:The irony here being that I'm trying to point out that concepts are within loka and should be seen and understood accordingly, whilst you're trying to turf them out of the realm of potential engagement (i.e. loka) by saying that "they are not sankharas in the sense of having the three characteristics". Your statement is non-sequitur, and if it ought be directed at anyone, it should be directed towards yourself.
retrofuturist wrote:It is habitual for all of us in daily life to hold that the cake is real, and due to avijja, believe that we are seeing and experiencing reality when we see the cake, when all we are experiencing are sankharas. That's all samsaric existence is - sankharas. No cake in loka. The cake is irrelevant - it is beyond range.
To me, my statement that "cake/self/man is a concept" is not significantly different to your statement "not cake in loka". So perhaps I should just leave it there.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

The second statement is regarding (ontological) cake (out there)..... not the "concept" of cake.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

The second statement is regarding (ontological) cake (out there)..... not the "concept" of cake.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hmm, OK. It's not really worth me saying much more if you think ontology has anything to do with what I've been trying to explain above. We would just be talking at cross purposes.

I've tried to explain how I see the arising of concepts, in a way that I think is quite in line with how Ven Nananda (not to mention the Buddha) explains it. I really don't see much difference between what I've said and what I think you've said, just some minor matters of terminology. You may well disagree, but I probably should just leave it there.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote: . . . especially when we sometimes see the term "no-self" bandied around, in place of "not-self".
Looking at the mind/body process there is no self to be found.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Looking at the mind/body process there is no self to be found.
Correct, because all dhammas are not-self.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

The second statement is regarding (ontological) cake (out there)..... not the "concept" of cake.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hmm, OK. It's not really worth me saying much more if you think ontology has anything to do with what I've been trying to explain above. We would just be talking at cross purposes.

I've tried to explain how I see the arising of concepts, in a way that I think is quite in line with how Ven Nananda (not to mention the Buddha) explains it. I really don't see much difference between what I've said and what I think you've said, just some minor matters of terminology. You may well disagree, but I probably should just leave it there.

:anjali:
Mike
Rereading this thread I am hard pressed to to see any ontological cake suggested, implied, intimated, hinted at, or directly stated in your msgs
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Looking at the mind/body process there is no self to be found.
Correct, because all dhammas are not-self.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Sure. Depending upon the context either no-self or not-self works without any ontological suggestion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by acinteyyo »

vinasp wrote:Hi TMingyur,

An interesting post.
But, in order to write that, you had to use your knowledge of English.
That knowledge must persist somewhere, if not in the mind - then
where?
Hi Vincent,

it is obvious from your post that you believe that knowledge must persist somewhere and it seems you think it persists in the mind. Why do you hold such a view?
Vincent wrote: If nothing persists in the mind then:

1. Where are your memories when you are not attending to them?

2. Where is your knowledge when you are not attending to it?
This is like asking where the fire has gone after it has gone out. The phrasing of your questions assumes memories and knowledge to be somewhere so that one could possibly be not attending to them, while they still are somewhere somehow. Either someone is conscious of memories or knowledge, then they are here and now or one is not, then there simply aren't any memories or knowledge here and now.
'If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that "This fire burning in front of me has gone out"?'

'...yes...'

'And suppose someone were to ask you, "This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?" Thus asked, how would you reply?'

'That doesn't apply, Venerable Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass & timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as "out" [nibbuto].'
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:We would just be talking at cross purposes.
Understood. Being conceptual and inherently based on referents, language certainly has its limitations in any discussion when those concepts and referents themselves are not to be taken as given.

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by pegembara »

It doesn’t mean to say there isn’t a physical world, but what
we can say is that the experience of the body, and the experience
of the world, happens within our mind. It doesn’t happen any-
where else. It’s all happening here. And in that here-ness, the
world’s externality, its separateness has ceased. The word “ces-
sation,” (nirodha), may also be used here. Along with its more
familiar rendition, the word also means “to hold in check,” so it
can mean that the separateness has ceased. When we realize that
we hold the whole world within us, its thing-ness, its other-ness
has been checked. We are better able to recognize its true nature.

This shift of vision is an interesting little meditation tool that
we can use anytime. It is a very useful device because it leads
us to the truth of the matter. Whenever we apply it, it flips the
world inside out, because we are then able to see that this body is
indeed just a set of perceptions. It doesn’t negate our functioning
freely, but it puts everything into context. “It’s all happening
within the space of rigpa, within the space of the knowing mind.”
In holding things in this way, we suddenly find our body,
the mind, and the world arriving at a resolution, a strange real-
ization of perfection. It all happens here. This method may seem
a little obscure, but sometimes the most abstruse and subtle
tools can bring about the most radical changes of heart.

Ajahn Amaro

"I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos." Rohitassa Sutta
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

A couple of good finds, pegembara.

:goodpost:

... though I'm sure the same point could have been made without reference to rigpa on Ajahn Amaro's part.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Dan74
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by Dan74 »

Probably not in a book which is about a Theravadan view of Dzogchen teachings.
_/|\_
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Dan.

See: http://www.forestsangha.org/index.php?o ... jahn-amaro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.forestsangha.org/index.php?o ... &Itemid=25" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Pegembara posted this in another topic and I thought it was worth reproducing here.
The wide gap that exists be­tween the sensory experience of the worldling and that experi­ence the arahant gets through the eye of wisdom. It is the same gap that obtains between the two terms papanca and nip­papanca. In sensory experience, which is based on worldly ex­pressions, worldly usages and worldly concepts, there is a dis­crimination between a thing to be grasped and the one who grasps, or, in other words, a subject-object relationship.

There is always a bifurcation, a dichotomy, in the case of sensory perception. If there is a seen, there has to be some­thing seen and the one who sees. That is the logic. In the Bàhi­ya­sutta, beginning with `in the seen there will be just the seen', the Buddha proclaimed to the ascetic Bàhiya a brief ex­hortation on Dhamma which enables one to transcend the above narrow view point and attain the state of non-prolifera­tion or nippapanca.

There is nothing to see, no one to see, only `a seen' is there. The cause of all these conceptual proliferation, or pa­panca, in the world is contact. The arahants understood this by their in­sight into the fact that the seen, the heard, the sensed and the cognized are simply so many collocations of condi­tions which come together for a moment due to contact, only to break up and get dispersed the next moment.

What is called the seen, the heard, the sensed and the cog­nized are for the worldling so many `things'. But to the wis­dom eye of the arahants they appear as mere conglomerations of conditions, dependent on contact, which momentarily come together and then get dispersed. This insight into the depend­ence on contact, phassam paticca, is the very essence of the law of dependent arising, paticca samuppàda. It is equivalent to seeing the law of dependent arising itself.

In order to transcend the narrow point of view limited to the bases of sense contact or the six sense spheres and realize the state of Nibbàna indicated by the words vinnànam anidas­sanam, anantam sabbato pabham,[2] "consciousness which is non-manifestative, endless, lustrous on all sides", one has to see the cessation of contact.

Nibbana Sermon
Nanananda
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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