A Logical Sacrifice?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Cittasanto
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Cittasanto »

There are many charitable organisations around who keep things confidential, a quick search of google will help find a suitable service provider!

but confidential in any medical situation including help lines does only go so far, if they felt you were in immediate risk of either hurting yourself or another they may contact the appropriate people to keep you or others out of harms way, and get you quick assistance! their duty is to help, not let things happen which could be avoided.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Cittasanto »

Thaibebop wrote: When I know that my wife can walk away with the girls and live a different and better life, in other words, the only reason they are going through what they are is because of me, it seems horribly selfish of me to keep them here.
have you talked to your wife?

I am sure they stay with you for very good reasons.

love is not always a easy thing, especially when the one we love is beating themselves up.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
santa100
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by santa100 »

"Improvise, Adapt, Overcome". That's a mantra you should constantly remind yourself of. A Bachelor degree is a valuable asset you already had. Just make sure to continue to keep up with current technologies to stay competitive and marketable. Take advantage of all the free trainings your company gives. Take extra computer courses at night either as non-credits or toward a grad. degree. Local community colleges do offer courses at very decent prices. Improvise, adapt, overcome...
hermitwin
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by hermitwin »

To think that suicide is the solution is not logical.
What does it solve? It creates more problems.
If you think you are the problem, you can go away.
Why do you have to kill yourself?
It does not make any sense to me at all.
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

santa100 wrote:"Improvise, Adapt, Overcome". That's a mantra you should constantly remind yourself of. A Bachelor degree is a valuable asset you already had. Just make sure to continue to keep up with current technologies to stay competitive and marketable. Take advantage of all the free trainings your company gives. Take extra computer courses at night either as non-credits or toward a grad. degree. Local community colleges do offer courses at very decent prices. Improvise, adapt, overcome...
I am waiting to get into grad school next year, which carries it's own set of problems, but is a career path.
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Goofaholix
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Goofaholix »

Thaibebop wrote:Yes, you are right. I could move with them, but I go to Thailand as a nobody with no skills or job prospects, with a BA in History. Her family are nice people but upper class Thais and a farang bum hanging around the house doesn't seem to suit them. Can't say I blame either. Besides an english teacher I don't know what I would do and therefore would must likely be living off her parents. I don't want to be a parasite. We have considered moving there. Her parents have gotten on in years and need some help, but I feel that I have disappointed my wife greatly here in America and moving there I just might embarrass the hell out of her. I have heard the upper class Thai society can be pretty unforgiving of personnel flaws. So, I am afraid I will inadvertently find another of way ruining their lives there.
Yes, what you've described isn't ideal and I know how you feel which is why we live in Farangland and not Thailand, however it's hellava lot better than suicide don't you think.

Perhaps if you start with an extended retreat or ordaining for a few months it might give you time to acclimatise, help you get your head straight, and help you into higher standing with the inlaws.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Jason
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Jason »

Thaibebop wrote:Can suicide be logic driven rather than emotionally driven, thus making it more acceptable due to the outcome of the death? If it can be proven that life can improve with the absence of someone, the reason for divorce or the ending of friendships, as examples, than can a suicide be determined a good thing by the same logic.
Interesting question. the Buddha himself seems to have been pretty adamant that only those who are free from greed, hatred and delusion are entirely blameless in such actions, i.e., there's only fault when one "gives up this body and seizes another" (MN 144). That said, according to Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Samantapasadika, Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinaya, states that there's no offense for a bhikkhu who commits suicide themselves when done for the appropriate reasons, of which two are given:
  • A bhikkhu is chronically sick with little sign of recovery and he wishes to end his own life so that he will no longer be a burden on the bhikkhus who are nursing him – in this case suicide is appropriate.

    A bhikkhu who is enlightened already becomes gravely ill with a painful disease from which he suspects he will not recover. As the disease is burdensome to him and he has nothing further to do, he thinks to end his life – in this case also suicide is appropriate.
So the answer may be a tentative yes.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Kim OHara
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Kim OHara »

Jason wrote:So the answer may be a tentative yes.
A tentative 'yes' in some very specific circumstances for people able to make the decision with total equanimity.
Very few rules are 100.00% applicable but the rule against suicide seems to be about 99.99% applicable, and for very good reasons.

:namaste:
Kim
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

Jason wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:Can suicide be logic driven rather than emotionally driven, thus making it more acceptable due to the outcome of the death? If it can be proven that life can improve with the absence of someone, the reason for divorce or the ending of friendships, as examples, than can a suicide be determined a good thing by the same logic.
Interesting question. the Buddha himself seems to have been pretty adamant that only those who are free from greed, hatred and delusion are entirely blameless in such actions, i.e., there's only fault when one "gives up this body and seizes another" (MN 144). That said, according to Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Samantapasadika, Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinaya, states that there's no offense for a bhikkhu who commits suicide themselves when done for the appropriate reasons, of which two are given:
  • A bhikkhu is chronically sick with little sign of recovery and he wishes to end his own life so that he will no longer be a burden on the bhikkhus who are nursing him – in this case suicide is appropriate.

    A bhikkhu who is enlightened already becomes gravely ill with a painful disease from which he suspects he will not recover. As the disease is burdensome to him and he has nothing further to do, he thinks to end his life – in this case also suicide is appropriate.
So the answer may be a tentative yes.
So, monks who commit suicide as a form of protest are in the wrong, at least by Theravada's view?
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

hermitwin wrote:To think that suicide is the solution is not logical.
What does it solve? It creates more problems.
If you think you are the problem, you can go away.
Why do you have to kill yourself?
It does not make any sense to me at all.
If I have to leave them I feel that I am not mentally strong enough to live without them, therefore, why bother living. That is/was my thinking.
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Kim OHara
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Kim OHara »

Thaibebop wrote:
Jason wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:Can suicide be logic driven rather than emotionally driven, thus making it more acceptable due to the outcome of the death? If it can be proven that life can improve with the absence of someone, the reason for divorce or the ending of friendships, as examples, than can a suicide be determined a good thing by the same logic.
Interesting question. the Buddha himself seems to have been pretty adamant that only those who are free from greed, hatred and delusion are entirely blameless in such actions, i.e., there's only fault when one "gives up this body and seizes another" (MN 144). That said, according to Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Samantapasadika, Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinaya, states that there's no offense for a bhikkhu who commits suicide themselves when done for the appropriate reasons, of which two are given:
  • A bhikkhu is chronically sick with little sign of recovery and he wishes to end his own life so that he will no longer be a burden on the bhikkhus who are nursing him – in this case suicide is appropriate.

    A bhikkhu who is enlightened already becomes gravely ill with a painful disease from which he suspects he will not recover. As the disease is burdensome to him and he has nothing further to do, he thinks to end his life – in this case also suicide is appropriate.
So the answer may be a tentative yes.
So, monks who commit suicide as a form of protest are in the wrong, at least by Theravada's view?
Yes.
:namaste:
Kim
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

Goofaholix wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:Yes, you are right. I could move with them, but I go to Thailand as a nobody with no skills or job prospects, with a BA in History. Her family are nice people but upper class Thais and a farang bum hanging around the house doesn't seem to suit them. Can't say I blame either. Besides an english teacher I don't know what I would do and therefore would must likely be living off her parents. I don't want to be a parasite. We have considered moving there. Her parents have gotten on in years and need some help, but I feel that I have disappointed my wife greatly here in America and moving there I just might embarrass the hell out of her. I have heard the upper class Thai society can be pretty unforgiving of personnel flaws. So, I am afraid I will inadvertently find another of way ruining their lives there.
Yes, what you've described isn't ideal and I know how you feel which is why we live in Farangland and not Thailand, however it's hellava lot better than suicide don't you think.

Perhaps if you start with an extended retreat or ordaining for a few months it might give you time to acclimatise, help you get your head straight, and help you into higher standing with the inlaws.
You help me remember something. The last time my father-in-law was able to visit he asked if I would ordain, since I was a farang who was interested in Buddhism. I said I would like at least to ordain for a short period of time, like the rainy season. He of course liked the idea, I thought it was just because he was Buddhist, but he only has two daughters, and it seems he can still attain merit if a son-in-law ordains. So, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

Interesting question. the Buddha himself seems to have been pretty adamant that only those who are free from greed, hatred and delusion are entirely blameless in such actions, i.e., there's only fault when one "gives up this body and seizes another" (MN 144). That said, according to Ajahn Brahmavamso, the Samantapasadika, Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinaya, states that there's no offense for a bhikkhu who commits suicide themselves when done for the appropriate reasons, of which two are given:
  • A bhikkhu is chronically sick with little sign of recovery and he wishes to end his own life so that he will no longer be a burden on the bhikkhus who are nursing him – in this case suicide is appropriate.

    A bhikkhu who is enlightened already becomes gravely ill with a painful disease from which he suspects he will not recover. As the disease is burdensome to him and he has nothing further to do, he thinks to end his life – in this case also suicide is appropriate.
So the answer may be a tentative yes.[/quote]
So, monks who commit suicide as a form of protest are in the wrong, at least by Theravada's view?[/quote]
Yes.
:namaste:
Kim[/quote]
It was their suicide that got me thinking if there was a higher goal for doing it, perhaps I could (live) with it.
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Goofaholix
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Goofaholix »

Thaibebop wrote:You help me remember something. The last time my father-in-law was able to visit he asked if I would ordain, since I was a farang who was interested in Buddhism. I said I would like at least to ordain for a short period of time, like the rainy season. He of course liked the idea, I thought it was just because he was Buddhist, but he only has two daughters, and it seems he can still attain merit if a son-in-law ordains. So, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.
Yes, I did this for my mother in law as she had no sons also. it meant a lot to her, she gained a lot of respect among her friends and relatives, and most importantly I had the chance to have a good retreat.

I'm sure this would mean a lot to your parents in law also if they are devout Buddhists, make sure you choose a monastery that has good vinaya and a good practise environment
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Thaibebop
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Re: A Logical Sacrifice?

Post by Thaibebop »

Goofaholix wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:You help me remember something. The last time my father-in-law was able to visit he asked if I would ordain, since I was a farang who was interested in Buddhism. I said I would like at least to ordain for a short period of time, like the rainy season. He of course liked the idea, I thought it was just because he was Buddhist, but he only has two daughters, and it seems he can still attain merit if a son-in-law ordains. So, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.
Yes, I did this for my mother in law as she had no sons also. it meant a lot to her, she gained a lot of respect among her friends and relatives, and most importantly I had the chance to have a good retreat.

I'm sure this would mean a lot to your parents in law also if they are devout Buddhists, make sure you choose a monastery that has good vinaya and a good practise environment
I believe they have a temple that they are donors of. The amulet I wear was given to my wife's family when her grandmother died by the temple they always went to.
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