All religious faiths are attachments.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby Bothi » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:33 pm

Howdy,

In reality, all religious faiths are attachments, therefore according to 4NT all religions must be causes of sufferings.

What is your opinion on this issue ?

With respect all,
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:25 pm

Not at all. Haven't you heard of the simile of The Raft?

The raft carries one to the other shore. Once there you don't need to carry the raft around with you wherever you go. But since we are still on this side, the Raft can be useful.
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby Goofaholix » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:10 pm

Bothi wrote:In reality, all religious faiths are attachments, therefore according to 4NT all religions must be causes of sufferings.

What is your opinion on this issue ?


Yes you are right, religion can be and is a source of attachment and unsatifactoriness. However there are attachments that lead to more attachment and attachments that lead to the cessation of attachment, Buddhist practise when done correctly is the latter and as has been pointed out is like a raft to enable you to get to the other shore, once you are on the other shore you can discard attchment to the raft.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby reflection » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:21 am

Don't agree.

Identification with faiths may lead to attachments, yes, but having faiths is not an attachment. Also, one could also argue whether Buddhism is a religion. Depends on your defenition of a religion, and your own practice, of course. I personally would say it is not.
Last edited by reflection on Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:30 am

A wanderer once approached the Blessed One and stated his view, “All is displeasing to me.”

The Buddha replied, “Is this view of yours, 'All is displeasing to me,' also displeasing to you?”

Not all desires are unwholesome, and the fervent wish to achieve the end of craving is not something to be abandoned until the goal is attained.

However, it is true that attachment to views causes suffering — even attachment to right views.
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby thaijeppe » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:49 am

Of course you can call faith attachment, but then there are positive and negative attachment.
If we talk about Buddhism , when you start to study and practice, you need to have faith in what The Buddha taught,
because you can not be certain from the beginning.
During your practice you will then change your faith to knowledge, when you experince for yourself that what The Buddha taught is correct,
and in the end you can let go of your attachment (faith), because you have experinced it all for yourself.
If we look at the N8P the first truth is Right view, you can not start your practice with Right view, because you simply don't know, but in the beginning
Right view is simply Faith.

:anjali: Jeppe
If you let go a little, you will have a little peace. If you
let go a lot, you will have a lot of peace. If you let go completely,
you will know complete peace and freedom.
Ajahn Chah
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby ground » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:05 am

Bothi wrote:Howdy,

In reality, all religious faiths are attachments, therefore according to 4NT all religions must be causes of sufferings.

What is your opinion on this issue ?

With respect all,


It is the other way round: suffering the the cause of faith as taught by the Buddha in SN12.23. And althought this referred specifically to the buddhist faith there is no reason why it should be different with other religious faiths.
It is just that the further results of buddhist faith may differ from those of other religious faiths.

Kind regards
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:46 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:A wanderer once approached the Blessed One and stated his view, “All is displeasing to me.”

The Buddha replied, “Is this view of yours, 'All is displeasing to me,' also displeasing to you?”

Not all desires are unwholesome, and the fervent wish to achieve the end of craving is not something to be abandoned until the goal is attained.

However, it is true that attachment to views causes suffering — even attachment to right views.

:goodpost:
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby Bothi » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:45 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Not at all. Haven't you heard of the simile of The Raft?

The raft carries one to the other shore. Once there you don't need to carry the raft around with you wherever you go. But since we are still on this side, the Raft can be useful.


Haven't you heard there is no self. So raft is not available...All these are attachments. You are on the image of the raft. And unless you leave the image of raft, you are attached to the raft image...And never one can be on the other side. Other side can be reachable after the death...As nibbana or parinibbana...

Lets all be mindful,
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby reflection » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:54 pm

Sorry, I would like to discuss, but don't understand what you are trying to say.
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:03 pm

Bothi wrote:...And never one can be on the other side. Other side can be reachable after the death...As nibbana or parinibbana...


There is nibbana with remainder and nibbana without remainder.

Regarding the rest of your post about attachments, perhaps an analogy might help:

You build a house primarily using a hammer. The house is a collection of parts. It has no essence or substance, nothing permanent. The tool, the hammer was useful in building this house. After you finish building it, there is no need to carry this tool around with you around the house wherever you go. But that doesn't deny its usefulness.
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby Bothi » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:28 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Bothi wrote:...And never one can be on the other side. Other side can be reachable after the death...As nibbana or parinibbana...


There is nibbana with remainder and nibbana without remainder.

Regarding the rest of your post about attachments, perhaps an analogy might help:

You build a house primarily using a hammer. The house is a collection of parts. It has no essence or substance, nothing permanent. The tool, the hammer was useful in building this house. After you finish building it, there is no need to carry this tool around with you around the house wherever you go. But that doesn't deny its usefulness.


Tools can be used only for materials...We are talking about not materials...That is if everything is impermanent , Buddhism has to be impermanent also,so same applies to nibbana...

If nothing is permanent, then who is gonna be in nibbana? If there is no essence, who is gonna be at the raft or in nibbana?
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby santa100 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:29 am

Bothi wrote:
"Tools can be used only for materials...We are talking about not materials...That is if everything is impermanent , Buddhism has to be impermanent also,so same applies to nibbana..."

For the phrase "everything is impermanent", make sure to understand the scope of the term "everything". It means "every conditioned phenomena". Nibbana is un-conditioned, it's total unbinding, thus it does not fall under the scope of those that are subjected to impermanence.

"If nothing is permanent, then who is gonna be in nibbana? If there is no essence, who is gonna be at the raft or in nibbana?"

Again, everything should be clear once you clearly see the scope of the word "nothing".
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby Bothi » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:47 pm

santa100 wrote:Bothi wrote:
"Tools can be used only for materials...We are talking about not materials...That is if everything is impermanent , Buddhism has to be impermanent also,so same applies to nibbana..."

For the phrase "everything is impermanent", make sure to understand the scope of the term "everything". It means "every conditioned phenomena". Nibbana is un-conditioned, it's total unbinding, thus it does not fall under the scope of those that are subjected to impermanence.

"If nothing is permanent, then who is gonna be in nibbana? If there is no essence, who is gonna be at the raft or in nibbana?"

Again, everything should be clear once you clearly see the scope of the word "nothing".


Nibbana is empty, people are empty, so they are all the same, conditioned or unconditioned, these do not make any difference, İf all are empty, that means all are same...

Lets all be mindful,
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby santa100 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:59 pm

Bothi wrote:
"Nibbana is empty, people are empty, so they are all the same, conditioned or unconditioned, these do not make any difference, İf all are empty, that means all are same...
"

At least on the conventional level, this doesn't make much sense, because it'd mean that everyone have already been enlightened and thus there's no need for training or practice..
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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby Dan74 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:03 am

That's right. Emptiness is powerful medicine and if misused becomes poison.

First there is form and we have to learn to deal with it, don't we?

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Re: All religious faiths are attachments.

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:39 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:You build a house primarily using a hammer.


I'm not going to let you do any building work in my house. :jumping:
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