Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

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Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby mzaur » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:16 pm

Hello,

I am having a discussion with someone who does not believe that enlightenment is permanent and lasting, because he says the mind is impermanent and all phenomena are impermanent. I said that enlightenment is not a phenomena but a realization about the true nature of all phenomena, but this person is still not getting it, because he says the mind is impermanent and so must enlightenment be.

I would like to quote some sutras to support my position that enlightenment is permanent and lasting (even after death). Could someone please offer some? Thank you

:namaste:

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:06 pm

33 synonyms for Nibbana

Samyutta Nikaya 43

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Jason » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:07 pm

Here's something I wrote back in February in a similar discussion:

    I suppose it all depends on what one means by permanent.

    For example, awaking in the Buddhist context isn't simply a meditative state that one only experiences while in meditation and goes away during normal everyday life (such as was the case with the Buddha's first two teachers, who mistook the third and fourth arupa jhanas as awakening); it's a state of mind that's said to be unshakable, total, and permanent in the sense that an arahant achieves irreversible release — i.e., complete eradication of the mental defilements of greed, hatred, and delusion (SN 38.1) — and can never fall back to a lower stage.

    It's also said (at least in the commentarial tradition of Theravada, at any rate) that they experience uninterrupted happiness/bliss (sukha) as a result of awakening. In "Nibbana as Living Experience," for example, Lily de Silva writes that, "On the attainment of Nibbana more refined non-sensuous pleasure is permanently established. The Ca"nkii Sutta specifically states that when a monk realizes the ultimate truth, he experiences that truth 'with the body.'"

    In essence, awakening is a profound psychological event that radically changes the way the mind relates to experience; it's a self-realization that's permanent. Psychological speaking, in normal, everyday unawakened experience, clinging (upadana) arises due to the presence of craving (tahna) in this chain of mental causation/interaction, which in turn is what conditions the arising of mental stress and suffering (dukkha). In awakened experience, however, clinging and craving are mental components that are no longer present in this chain, and will never again arise because the requisite conditions for their arising have been removed/eradicated—hence awakening being permanent in the sense of being "continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change" (Merriam Webster).

    It's hard to compare this with normal states of mind since we're not talking about a normal state with conditioned mental objects, but one dealing with the deathless (amata) and unestablished consciousness (vinnanam anidassanam) devoid of defilements and non-attached to any phenomena whatsoever, or as Dogen says in the Genjokoan, "No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly." I think Bhikkhu Nanananda sums it up well, though, in "Nibbana Sermon 07":

    Now viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ is a reference to the nature of the released consciousness of an arahant. It does not reflect anything. To be more precise, it does not reflect a nāma-rūpa, or name-and-form. An ordinary individual sees a nāma-rūpa, when he reflects, which he calls 'I' and 'mine'. It is like the reflection of that dog, which sees its own delusive reflection in the water. A non-arahant, upon reflection, sees name-and-form, which however he mistakes to be his self. With the notion of 'I' and 'mine' he falls into delusion with regard to it. But the arahant's consciousness is an unestablished consciousness.

    We have already mentioned in previous sermons about the established consciousness and the unestablished consciousness.[ix] A non-arahant's consciousness is established on name-and-form. The unestablished consciousness is that which is free from name-and-form and is unestablished on name-and-form. The established consciousness, upon reflection, reflects name-and-form, on which it is established, whereas the unestablished consciousness does not find a name-and-form as a reality. The arahant has no attachments or entanglements in regard to name-and-form. In short, it is a sort of penetration of name-and-form, without getting entangled in it. This is how we have to unravel the meaning of the expression anidassana viññāṇa.

You might also want to review the entire thread, Why is Nirvana permanent?
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Zom » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:30 pm

because he says the mind is impermanent and so must enlightenment be.


Yes, enlightenment, as a state of mind, is impermanent, since mind is impermanent.

However, enlightenment as a cessation of becoming, birth, death, defilements and so on - is permanent. Why is that? Because they can't appear again after you die. This way suffering ceases forever. No new suffering will ever appear again. The cessation of all these things is permanent.

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby mzaur » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:03 pm

Thank you. Very helpful :namaste:
Could you please tell me what 'nirvana is unconditioned' means?

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:48 pm

mzaur wrote:Thank you. Very helpful :namaste:
Could you please tell me what 'nirvana is unconditioned' means?



The most straightforward definition the Buddha gives of nibbana is:

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is
nibbana.
-- S.N. IV 251 and IV 321

And we see:

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is
asankhata
[unconditioned].[/b] -- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362

One who has become nibbana-ized is one who is free of the conditioning of greed, hatred and delusion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:50 pm

Well all conditioned things are imperminent, but nibbana is also called the unconditioned, unborn, uncreated. SN1.8 if I remember of the top of my head, maybe .9 or .10
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Bagoba » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:13 pm

Zom wrote:
because he says the mind is impermanent and so must enlightenment be.


Yes, enlightenment, as a state of mind, is impermanent, since mind is impermanent.

However, enlightenment as a cessation of becoming, birth, death, defilements and so on - is permanent. Why is that? Because they can't appear again after you die. This way suffering ceases forever. No new suffering will ever appear again. The cessation of all these things is permanent.


Unfathomable! :-D
"This path is a thorough investigation and understanding of the limitations of the mortal condition of the body and mind. Now you're developing the ability to turn away from the conditioned and to release your identity from mortality." Ajan Sumedho, "Mindfulness, the path to the Deathless." http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/deathless.pdf

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:10 am

mzaur wrote:Hello,

I am having a discussion with someone who does not believe that enlightenment is permanent and lasting, because he says the mind is impermanent and all phenomena are impermanent. I said that enlightenment is not a phenomena but a realization about the true nature of all phenomena, but this person is still not getting it, because he says the mind is impermanent and so must enlightenment be.

I would like to quote some sutras to support my position that enlightenment is permanent and lasting (even after death). Could someone please offer some? Thank you

:namaste:


Enlightenment according to my understanding has to do with the abilities of attained beings; Arahants, Buddhas, and Sammasambuddha's, such as Gotama Buddha.

The problem of confusion may be the view of some traditions of The Mahayana that mind is what enters nibbana, or wrongful interpretation of Buddha's dissertations in The Theravada regarding experience of mind states beyond the Jhanas, but Buddha clearly taught that is not the case. Unbinding for example is "not" the state of nibbana as Buddha states here in The Nibbana Sutta, but a temporary mind state experienced as a result of meditation and mindfulness practice. In other words "unbinding" does not necessarily result in "enlightenment". One can enter unbound and released mind states and then return to the samsaric realms, only to fall prey to the hindrances, clinging, grasping and attachment of the aggregates through a relapse of mindfulness and failure to live out one's life in accordance with The Noble Eight Fold Path once again. For example, on any number of occasions Buddha could have chosen to give in to Mara's enticements, but the state of his enlightenment was such that as a Sammasambuddha he could resist and maintain his state of attainment.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(Sanskrit nirvāna): lit. 'extinction' (nir + Ö va, to cease blowing, to become extinguished); according to the commentaries, 'freedom from desire' (nir+ vana). Nibbāna constitutes the highest and ultimate goal of all Buddhist aspirations, i.e. absolute extinction of that life-affirming will manifested as greed, hate and delusion, and convulsively clinging to existence; and therewith also the ultimate and absolute deliverance from all future rebirth, old age, disease and death, from all suffering and misery. Cf. Parinibbāna.

"Extinction of greed, extinction of hate, extinction of delusion: this is called Nibbāna" (S. XXXVIII. 1).

The 2 aspects of Nibbāna are:

(1) The full extinction of defilements (kilesa-parinibbāna), also called sa-upādi-sesa-nibbāna (s. It. 41), i.e. 'Nibbāna with the groups of existence still remaining' (s. upādi). This takes place at the attainment of Arahatship, or perfect holiness (s. ariya-puggala).

(2) The full extinction of the groups of existence (khandha-parinibbāna), also called an-upādi-sesa-nibbāna (s. It. 41, A.IV.118), i.e. 'Nibbāna without the groups remaining', in other words, the coming to rest, or rather the 'no-more-continuing' of this physico-mental process of existence. This takes place at the death of the Arahat. - (App.: Nibbāna).

Sometimes both aspects take place at one and the same moment, i.e. at the death of the Arahat; s. sama-sīsī.

"This, o monks, truly is the peace, this is the highest, namely the end of all formations, the forsaking of every substratum of rebirth, the fading away of craving, detachment, extinction, Nibbāna" (A. III, 32).

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen."
(Vis.M. XVI)


source: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/nibbaana.htm

Attained beings, as cited previously, may occupy the samsaric realms, but choose not to enter nibbana, or simply not enter nibbana, the state free from rebirth and the entire mass of suffering which is the samsaric realms, after death. In other words they will not be reborn, unless, like Buddha, an enlightened Sammasambuddha, chooses to do so.
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-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:21 am

Cittasanto wrote:Well all conditioned things are imperminent, but nibbana is also called the unconditioned, unborn, uncreated. SN1.8 if I remember of the top of my head, maybe .9 or .10
And to understand what those epithets mean in relationship to nibbana, one needs to look at how they are used in the suttas, and the about two texts I quoted above give a very nice example of that. This Udana 80 text is not a stand-alone text. Nibbana is unconditioned because one is no longer conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion. No point in making this complicated or mysterious.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:23 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote: The Nibbana Sutta, but a temporary mind state experienced as a result of meditation and mindfulness practice. In other words "unbinding" does not necessarily result in "enlightenment".
So, what word in Pali are you translating as "unbinding?"

If "unbinding" here is referring to nibbana, please show that unbinding is, in fact, different from bodhi, "enlightenment." And please show us some actual sutta support for this statement of yours.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:07 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote: The Nibbana Sutta, but a temporary mind state experienced as a result of meditation and mindfulness practice. In other words "unbinding" does not necessarily result in "enlightenment".
So, what word in Pali are you translating as "unbinding?"

If "unbinding" here is referring to nibbana, please show that unbinding is, in fact, different from bodhi, "enlightenment." And please show us some actual sutta support for this statement of yours.


The reference was provided: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

AN 9.34 PTS: A iv 414
Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

...in which Ven Sariputta describes progressive mind states during meditation progressing to unbinding.

As for your question regarding the difference between bodhi (enlightened) and abaddha (unbound).

You can find you answer here:

This experience of the goal — absolutely unlimited freedom, beyond classification and exclusive of all else — is termed the elemental nibbāna property with no 'fuel' remaining (anupādisesa-nibbāna-dhātu). It is one of two ways in which nibbāna is experienced, the distinction between the two being expressed as follows:

'Monks, there are these two forms of the nibbāna property. Which two? The nibbāna property with fuel remaining, and the nibbāna property with no fuel remaining.

'And what is the nibbāna property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose effluents have ended, who has attained completion, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five [sense] faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he experiences the pleasing & the displeasing, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the nibbāna property with fuel remaining.

'And what is the nibbāna property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant... released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the nibbāna property with no fuel remaining.'

— Iti 44


These various levels of nibbana property do not describe the attainments of those who have experienced them as there are levels of attainment within the ranks of Buddhas:

The Eight Conditions of a sammsambuddha:
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... asambuddha

Compare with Paccekabuddha: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Wheels/wh305.pdf

Buddhaghosa’s commentary on the Dīghanikāya describes three different categories of
knowledge as follows: “The knowledge of the perfections of a disciple is deep, (but) therein is
no determination (vavatthāna). And further the knowledge of a Paccekabuddha is deeper than
that, (but) also in that there is no determination. And the knowledge of omniscience is deeper
than that. And there is no other that is deeper …” (D-a I 100).
And in the Sāratthappakāsinī “Disciples … attain the knowledge of the perfections of a
disciple, Paccekabuddhas the knowledge of self-enlightenment, (and) Buddhas the knowledge
of omniscience” (S-a III 208). The Majjhimanikāya enumerates fourteen offerings graded
according to the state of the individual to whom they are presented: the first is the offering
presented to a Sammāsambuddha; the second the offering presented to a Paccekabuddha, the
third to an arahat-disciple of a Buddha (M III 254).
In addition to the classification of Buddha, Paccekabuddha and disciple, another classification
occurring in the commentarial literature speaks of four kinds of Buddhas: the omniscient
Buddha, the Paccekabuddha, the four-truths Buddha, and the learned Buddha (S-a I 25).
are explained as follows: “Here (the person) who, having fulfilled all the thirty perfections,
8
attains perfect enlightenment, is called an omniscient Buddha. (He), who, having fulfilled the
perfections in the course of one hundred thousand kalpas plus two incalculable periods, attains
the state of a self-existent one, is called a Paccekabuddha. The remaining ones who have
destroyed the evil influences are called four-truths-Buddhas. And those who are very learned
(are called) learned Buddhas” (S-a I 25). In this classification the third member of the threefold
series, the disciple, has been divided into the liberated disciple or arahat and the disciple who is
learned in the teaching but not yet liberated.
Besides the differences between Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and disciples according to the
technical use of the terms, certain shared similarities can also be found in the texts. Thus
Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas and disciples are equally called noble (ariya), and their lineage is the
lineage of the noble (ariyavaṃsa).
Four persons are called worthy of a stupa, namely a Sammāsambuddha, a Paccekabuddha, a
disciple, and a king who is a world-ruler. The function of a stupa of a Paccekabuddha is that
“having made their hearts confident, thinking: ”This is the stupa of a Lord Paccekasambuddha,”
(people) attain a good form of existence, a heavenly world, on the dissolution of their bodies at
death.”
The Kathāvatthu states that Paccekabuddhas, Sammāsambuddhas and disciples cannot arise
in the world of the gods, because among the gods there is no one who follows a religious life.
They can only arise in the human world where a religious life, i.e., a life of renunciation and
meditation, is possible (Kv I 95 and 97). Although Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and disciples live
in the world of sensual desire, they do not remain subject to the five strands of sensual
pleasures.


The Seven Factors of Enlightenment:

SN 46.14 PTS: S v 79 CDB ii 1580
Gilana Sutta: Ill
(Factors of Enlightenment)

"Kassapa, these seven factors of enlightenment are well expounded by me and are cultivated and fully developed by me. They conduce to perfect understanding, to full realization (of the four Noble Truths) and to Nibbana. What are the seven?

i. "Mindfulness, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me, and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

ii. "Investigation of the Dhamma, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me, and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

iii. "Persevering effort, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

iv. "Rapture, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me, and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

v. "Calm, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me, and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

vi. "Concentration, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me, and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

vii. "Equanimity, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me, and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

"These seven factors of enlightenment, Kassapa, are well expounded by me and are cultivated and fully developed by me. They conduce to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana."
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But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:38 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote: . . .
The attainment of nibbana is the attainment of awakening, bodhi. And the arahant's aatainment opf bodhi is not different from that of the Buddha, according to the suttas.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9747&p=149866&#p149864

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9747&p=149866&#p149866

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2682&#p37733
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:18 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote: . . .
The attainment of nibbana is the attainment of awakening, bodhi. And the arahant's aatainment opf bodhi is not different from that of the Buddha, according to the suttas.

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 6&#p149864

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 6&#p149866

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 82&#p37733


Then why would there be Arahants (still alive), Arahants (dead), Buddhas (still alive), Buddhas (dead), and sammasambuddhas, each of higher attainments. Is it not logical that higher attainments would lead to higher stages of enlightenment?

Lastly, I guess you missed this, why would Buddha say this: "conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana", which to me means that attainments / including degrees of enlightenment ( perfect understanding, full realization).... is a seperate issue from unbinding and release into nibbana.

Perhaps this is one of those problems which arises when people with non-bodhi minds discuss something which they haven't yet experienced for themselves. Maybe we best leave this discussion to The Arahants and Buddhas. :tongue:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:36 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote: . . .
The attainment of nibbana is the attainment of awakening, bodhi. And the arahant's aatainment opf bodhi is not different from that of the Buddha, according to the suttas.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9747&p=149866&#p149864

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9747&p=149866&#p149866

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2682&#p37733


Then why would there be Arahants (still alive), Arahants (dead), Buddhas (still alive), Buddhas (dead), and sammasambuddhas, each of higher attainments. Is it not logical that higher attainments would lead to higher stages of enlightenment?
And by attainments you mean what?

Lastly, I guess you missed this, why would Buddha say this: "conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana", which to me means that attainments / including degrees of enlightenment ( perfect understanding, full realization).... is a seperate issue from unbinding and release into nibbana.
Not at all. It helps to actually understand Pali idiomatic structure. What this would indicate is synonymy.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:01 pm

Also, see Ven Bodhi'sa translation, which is far better than the translation you used.

. . . it leads to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. -- CDB ii 1581, which clearly indicates synonymy.

And see Ven Thanissaro's, which agrees with Ven Bodhi's: "Kassapa, these are the seven factors for Awakening rightly taught by me that — when developed and pursued — lead to direct knowledge, to self-Awakening, to Unbinding."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

You are using Ven Piyadassi's: It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html

When there are lists such as this in Pali, this indicates terms with synonymous meaning. Different terms for the same things. The first two translations are more accurate than the last one.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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tiltbillings
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:02 am

One more point, the Pali of the line in question

mayā sammadakkhāto bhāvito bahulīkato abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati

does not have an "and" in it. It is a list that is accurtately translated by Vens Bodha and Thanissaro.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:28 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Also, see Ven Bodhi'sa translation, which is far better than the translation you used.

. . . it leads to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. -- CDB ii 1581, which clearly indicates synonymy.

And see Ven Thanissaro's, which agrees with Ven Bodhi's: "Kassapa, these are the seven factors for Awakening rightly taught by me that — when developed and pursued — lead to direct knowledge, to self-Awakening, to Unbinding."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

You are using Ven Piyadassi's: It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html

When there are lists such as this in Pali, this indicates terms with synonymous meaning. Different terms for the same things. The first two translations are more accurate than the last one.


Thank you for the references. I very much appreciate the way you share your considerable knowledge of the suttas.

I see no difference in the sentence structure with commas separating words indicating concepts, than I do with conjunctions. The fact that separate words are used indicates that there is a conceptual difference, otherwise there would be no need for another word. As an engineer we could call this non-productive redundancy, which often leads to misconceptions, misunderstanding, confusion, and wrong view. Understanding this very real concern with misleading teaching of The Dhamma due to synonomy (Excellent word by the way!), especially when trying to be true to Buddha's words, which convey the instructions as to escape from this torturous realm of samsara, you would think that these venerables would pick their words very carefully.

Summarizing: In fourteen years of reading suttas I have never seen anyone equate "enlightenment" with "nibbana", "unbinding", and "release". Unbinding and release always referred to relinquishment of attachments due to living one's life in accordance with The Noble Eight Fold Path. Nibbana is an indescribable state, which can only be understood by those who have attained it. Enlightenment is a function of one's attainments only one of which is nibbana. Otherwise, there would be no need for differentiating between various levels of Arahants and Buddhas as previously stated and as reflected in the references previously provided. So, your conclusion and explanation is quite new to my understanding. I will have to do some research and come back with the results of my own personal verification and validation.

In any event, thank you again for sharing your knowledge, which I hold in the deepest respect. I always learn a great deal from what you have to share on these boards.

_/\_Ron
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:12 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:I see no difference in the sentence structure with commas separating words indicating concepts, than I do with conjunctions. The fact that separate words are used indicates that there is a conceptual difference, otherwise there would be no need for another word.
I am not going to spend much more time on this. It is a commonly understood thing among those who know Pali that Pali is idiomatically used the way I have described. If you want to impose an English reading of a Pali string of epithets, that is your choice and your garden path.


That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata, free from the conditioned." SN IV 359 and SN IV 362

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. SN IV 251 and IV 321

The destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion is arahantship. SN IV 252.

"Whoever frees himself from the passions of greed, hatred, and ignorance, they call him, one who is self developed, made divine, thus-gone (tathagata), awake (buddha), one who has left fear and hatred, and one who has let go of all." Itivuttaka 57.

"And what have I [the Buddha] taught? 'This is dukkha... This is the origination of dukkha... This is the cessation of dukkha... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening [sambodhi], to nibbana. This is why I have taught them. SN v 437 cf DN i 189
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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tiltbillings
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:05 am

Because, friend, this is beneficial, relevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and leads to revulsion, dispassion, to cessation [nirodha], to peace, to direct knowledge[abi~n~ aa], to sambodhi, to nibbana. Therefore the Blessed one has declared it. SN ii 223

A monk who is thus possesses the fifteen factors including entusiasm is capapable of beaking out, capable of sambodhi, capable of attaining the supreme security from bondage [these last four words are used for nibbana]. MN i 104

The Tathagata has awkened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to sambodhi, to nibbana. And what is the middle way awakened to by the tathagata .... It is the Noble Eightfold Path.... SN iv 330-1

There friends, greed is an evil, anger is an evil. To dispel greed and anger, there is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. It is this same noble eightfold path such as right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Friends, this is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, nibbana. MN i 15
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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