Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

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vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by vinasp »

Hi Mike,

Mike said: "I believe that wrong view occurs in several places ..." [ MN 22.15]

Also very interesting! Thanks Mike.

Regards, Vincent.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ven. Kiribathgoda Gnanananda Thero in The Supreme Bliss Of Nibbana (p48) wrote:Those who fail to understand the real significance of this all important doctrine mistake it to be thus; there are five aggregates - form (rupa), feeling (vedana), perception (sanna), fabrications (sankhara) and consciousness (vinnana), and out of these, form as materiality whilst other four aggregates as mentality. Also some describe materiality as physical body and mentality as mind.

The Enlightened One discovered this eternal truth, unraveled the mystery of being by comprehending, in all its fullness. We should learn the meaning of nama-rupa from the teaching of the Buddha.
SN 12.2: Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta wrote:"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form."
i.e. namarupa upādānakkhandha mind&body

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

The Five Aggregates of Clinging. Here is one way of understanding them.

1. The five aggregates of clinging are also called "identity" - see MN 44.2

"Lady, 'identity, identity' is said. What is called identity by the Blessed
One?"
"Friend Visakha, these five aggregates affected by clinging are called
identity by the Blessed One; ....."

[The word in Pali is "sakkaya" translated as: identity or self-identification.]

2. How does "identity" come to be, arise, originate? The answer is in SN 22.44:

At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the way leading to the origination of identity and the way leading to the cessation of identity. Listen to that ...
"And what, bhikkhus , is the way leading to the origination of identity ?
Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling ... regards form as self ...feeling as self ...perception as self ...volitional formations as self ... consciousness as self ... or self as in consciousness. This, bhikkhus, is called the way leading to the origination of identity. When it is said, "The way leading to the origination of identity", the meaning here is this : a way of regarding things that leads to the origination of suffering.

3. So, it is through regarding things as self that identity arises, and it is
by not regarding things in this way that identity ceases.

So it is through regarding things as self that the five aggregates of clinging
arise, and it is by not regarding things in this way that they cease.

The five aggregates of clinging may be just views of self.

Regards, Vincent.
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kirk5a
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by kirk5a »

vinasp wrote:The five aggregates of clinging may be just views of self.
No, because self-identity views are abandoned at stream entry, yet further clinging remains.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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ground
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by ground »

vinasp wrote: The five aggregates of clinging may be just views of self.
Yes, in that there is the view "This am I", "this is mine" there is the view of self. The view itself is the aggregates, it is self-view. It does not necessarily have to be as conceptual as "This am I", "This is mine" may imply but it ia a spontaneous occuring sense of identification and/or approrpriation of the manifesting aggregates of and/or with themselves.

Kind regards
vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by vinasp »

Hi kirk5a,

Quote: "No, because self-identity views are abandoned at stream entry, yet
further clinging remains."

Do you know what Pali word is being translated as "abandoned"?

If identity-view is said to be "abandoned", what is meant by this?

Are the views no longer regarded as true? Have they completely ceased?

Does it mean that one has started to remove these views?

Regards, Vincent.
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kirk5a
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by kirk5a »

vinasp wrote:Hi kirk5a,

Quote: "No, because self-identity views are abandoned at stream entry, yet
further clinging remains."

Do you know what Pali word is being translated as "abandoned"?
No, sorry. But I see words used of "abandoned" - "with the wasting away" - "destroyed" ...

So it seems a final sort of thing with regard to what is being referred to in particular by "self-identity views." Which does not describe the totality of the fetters.

If identity-view is said to be "abandoned", what is meant by this?

Are the views no longer regarded as true? Have they completely ceased?

Does it mean that one has started to remove these views?
I guess it means whatever stream-entry means. :smile: But we can get a clue about the extent to which that goes beyond intellectual assent to right view from the following:
Then the thought occurred to Ven. Channa, "I, too, think that form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant; form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self; all fabrications are inconstant; all phenomena are not-self. But still my mind does not leap up, grow confident, steadfast, & released[1] in the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, Unbinding. Instead, agitation & clinging arise, and my intellect pulls back, thinking, 'But who, then, is my self?' But this thought doesn't occur to one who sees the Dhamma. So who might teach me the Dhamma so that I might see the Dhamma?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Regarding form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness as self, or related to self, is said to be the origin of identity.

These passages have the following structure;

"Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling ..... regards form as self,
or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form."
[The same is repeated for feeling, perception, volitional-formations
and consciousness.]

This gives twenty ways of regarding something as self or related to self.
For brevity, I will refer to such passages as: "The twenty ways of regarding
self."

Of course, no one regards self in all twenty ways. Someone who holds the
Annihilationist view will regard form, feeling, perception, volitional
formations and consciousness - as self. This is identification, form is self.

Someone who holds the Eternalist view will regard self as possessing form,
feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. This is
appropriation, form belongs to self.

The set of "twenty ways of regarding self" is intended to cover all
possible situations.

So, these ways of regarding which are the origin of identity represent both
identification and appropriation, and both of these lead to/involve clinging.

Regards, Vincent.
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ground
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by ground »

kirk5a wrote:
... "I, too, think that ...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is the point of not-knowing but conceiving, the function of the clinging aggregates.

Kind regards
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piotr
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by piotr »

Hi all,

Just recently audiodharma.org published new dhamma-talk by bhante Ṭhānissaro, where he explains why the Buddha choose this five categories to describe ordinary experience, i.e. what activity underlies them. It was illuminating for me, so I thought I'd share it with you: http://audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/3011.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Different Ways of Understanding the Aggregates.

Starting with the simplest one:

1. Form (rupa) means ones actual body, and this is the form aggregate.
Feeling means ones actual feelings, and this is the feelings aggregate.
Perception means ones actual perception, and this is the perception
aggregate. Volitional formations means ones actual conditioning and
volition, and these are the volitional formations aggregate.
Consciousness means ones actual consciousness, and this is the
consciousness aggregate.

So, form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness
taken together, are the five aggregates [ panca-kkhandha.]

A "worldling" is said to cling to these five aggregates, and this clinging
is what is meant by the "five aggregates subject to clinging."
[ panc'upadana-kkhandha.]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What do you think, is this a correct description of the simplest view of
the aggregates?

Regards, Vincent.
Sarva
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by Sarva »

:) Interesting thread! Thanks.
Last edited by Sarva on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86
vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Some Notes on Pali Terms For the Aggregates.

The Pali term "panca-kkhandha" is usually translated as "five aggregates,"
but also sometimes as "five groups."

The other key term - panc'upadana-kkhandha - is difficult to
translate, some examples are:

a) Five aggregates of grasping - Walshe 1987
b) Five groups of clinging - Nyanatiloka 1988
c) Five aggregates affected by clinging - Bodhi 1995
d) Five aggregates subject to clinging - Bodhi 2000

Expressions such as "the five aggregates of clinging" can lead to an
interpretation that there are two separate sets of aggregates.

While the expression "five aggregates subject to clinging" tends to the
interpretation that there is only one set of aggregates, which are either
with, or without, clinging.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

The five aggregates and the five aggregates of clinging are described in
SN 22.48 - link to ATI version:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... 2.048.than" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

If they wanted people to understand the form aggregate as "ones own body"
then why did they describe it in this way:

The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, are the five aggregates?

"Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the form aggregate."

[ similar descriptions follow for the other items, feeling, and so on.]

This is a description which includes all the form in the entire cosmos.

It seems, to me, to be intended to cover every form that one can think of,
rather than simply ones own body.

Regards, Vincent.
Sarva
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Post by Sarva »

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

The five aggregates and the five aggregates of clinging are described in
SN 22.48 - link to ATI version:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... 2.048.than" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

If they wanted people to understand the form aggregate as "ones own body"
then why did they describe it in this way:

The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, are the five aggregates?

"Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the form aggregate."

[ similar descriptions follow for the other items, feeling, and so on.]

This is a description which includes all the form in the entire cosmos.

It seems, to me, to be intended to cover every form that one can think of,
rather than simply ones own body.

Regards, Vincent.
Hi Vincent
I agree, form isn't limited to body, the concept of internal and external needs to be challenged.
Acinteyyo makes an interesting enquiry here also, which you might find of intererst :)
: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... t=namarupa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86
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