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Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:43 pm
by Dan74
It could've been, although as a recluse, he could've easily done it so that no one would have found out.
All very speculative.
We are here because great teachers chose to share their wisdom rather than focus all their energies on attaining cessation. There is a lot to be said for not rushing to save the world and "blessing" it with our ignorance but seeing our actions only in terms of what they are not, is going too far, in my view.
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:36 pm
by Lazy_eye
Dan74 wrote:I guess with the same logic, if Parinibbana is nibbana with no effluents, the ultimate nibbana, which is the great goal, the Buddha should've killed himself the moment he attained liberation.
Hi Dan,
Yes, I see. That seems to point to altruism and compassion as a consideration, since the Buddha not only remained but set about the difficult task of teaching others.
It occurs to me though that buddhas and arahants would have no reason to kill themselves because they would be free of all the factors that would motivate taking such action. They might not have a desire for continued existence, but they would also have no need to bring existence forcibly to an end.
I wonder if it makes sense to think of nibbana with remainder as the immediate goal and nibbana without remainder as the subsequent goal. Because in order to really embrace cessation, it seems to me, one has to reach a place where the drawbacks of all attachment are clearly discerned. And that essentially means breaking the last fetters.
reflection wrote: And these are two situations, nr 1 being what you state classical Therevadan Buddhism teaches.
1. There is rebirth. The end of rebirth is nirvana, the cessation of aggregates A. This is the highest happiness.
2. There is no rebirth. The death is the cessation of aggregates B.
I renamed the aggregates A & B, because in situation 2, they wouldn't be the same kind of aggregates as in situation 1, as they aren't sensitive to rebirth. You see, in the statements there would otherwise be an inconsistency. It's like saying, I've got here two red apples, but one is green. But that can't be. Actually, both aggregates are apples, but not the same kind of apples, so renamed A & B to indicate their colors. Are you with me me so far?
So far, with this correction of renaming the aggregates, we're fine. But than comes the dangerous assumption you make: that in situation nr 2, the cessation of aggregates B is also the highest happiness, as situation 1 says about aggregates A. But who'se going to say that that's true? You can't just equate the two if the aggregates are different. A red apple doesn't taste like a green apple.So we also can't follow the "overall Buddhist perspective" anymore. In other words, in situation 2 you would invariably take along an assumption hidden in situation 1, an approach that is not valid. And thus, the question can't be answered.
I could have said it shorter by saying a view of non-rebirth doesn't apply to the Buddhist perspective (at least the perspective as you sort of defined it), but I hope this makes something clear or at least gets you thinking that it may not be so easy to equate nirvana to something.
Thanks, R. I tend to agree that essentially different and incompatible perspectives are being compared here.
It seems to me the act of suicide is based on various "givens" which would clearly be under question from a Buddhist point of view -- one being annihilationism, and another being a view of self ("sui" means self). Also, identification of that self with the body. Perhaps this would be an answer to give my (hypothetical) friend.
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:09 pm
by paarsurrey
I don't think Buddha believed in physical multiple rebirths of man; it is primarily a Hindu concept got mixed up with Buddhism.
Buddha meant, in my opinion, spiritual forms one resembles while treading on the middle path till one attains salvation; it is all in one span of life not in multiple rebirths physically.
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:33 am
by Mothra
I don't think one can separate belief in rebirth from Theravada Buddhism. If one rejects the idea of rebirth then so too does the concept of nirvana no longer make sense. Death by itself is not cessation of the aggregates. Only if enlightenment is realized during the lifetime is death going to be the final one, and only then do the aggregates cease.
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:23 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
Mothra wrote:If one rejects the idea of rebirth then so too does the concept of nirvana no longer make sense.
This makes no sense to me.
To paraphrase what Aloka said elsewhere recently... nirvana is for the enlightened, not the dead.
Metta,
Retro.
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:36 am
by Mothra
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Mothra wrote:If one rejects the idea of rebirth then so too does the concept of nirvana no longer make sense.
This makes no sense to me.
To paraphrase what Aloka said elsewhere recently... nirvana is for the enlightened, not the dead.
Metta,
Retro.
Because as I understand it, nirvana is the breaking out of the cycle of rebirths. If there is no cycle, then doesn't suffering end with the cessation of life? That was what the OP was asking, and to me it seems completely opposed to what the Buddha taught. If that were the case then there would be nothing wrong with a life of hedonism and violence, because both you and your victims would still achieve the cessation of suffering anyway.
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:22 am
by Lazy_eye
retrofuturist wrote:
To paraphrase what Aloka said elsewhere recently... nirvana is for the enlightened, not the dead.
But what's the difference exactly? I understand of course that arahants don't just drop dead at the moment of awakening, but their continued existence is considered to be a kammic remainder (or so I understand).
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:36 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Lazy,
Once again, I refer you to the topic I referred you to on page 1 of the topic.
Hopefully it challenges your perspective on what "existence" is.
(clue: it's not "living")
Metta,
Retro.
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:34 am
by mikenz66
For some opinions on the meaning of bhava (becoming/existence) see, for example:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... .htm#bhava" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:16 am
by paarsurrey
Mothra wrote:retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Mothra wrote:If one rejects the idea of rebirth then so too does the concept of nirvana no longer make sense.
This makes no sense to me.
To paraphrase what Aloka said elsewhere recently... nirvana is for the enlightened, not the dead.
Metta,
Retro.
Because as I understand it, nirvana is the breaking out of the cycle of rebirths. If there is no cycle, then doesn't suffering end with the cessation of life? That was what the OP was asking, and to me it seems completely opposed to what the Buddha taught. If that were the case then there would be nothing wrong with a life of hedonism and violence, because both you and your victims would still achieve the cessation of suffering anyway.
I think Buddha's view was that suffering is linked with sins when one is under the influence of Mara or evil; hence Buddha's teaching was extinction of the self. When one is still struggling with the self or sins in the self then one could resemble different forms of animals; that is what might be describes as cycle of rebirth, not a physical rebirth; when one comes out of one's self, and sins no more generate in it, one is out of the influence of Mara; that is the stage when one achieves nirvana or salvation or peace and happiness. This all happens in this life and continues when one goes into heaven after death, in the afterlife, in my opinion.
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:33 am
by Ben
paarsurrey wrote:I think Buddha's view was that suffering is linked with sins when one is under the influence of Mara or evil; hence Buddha's teaching was extinction of the self. When one is still struggling with the self or sins in the self then one could resemble different forms of animals; that is what might be describes as cycle of rebirth, not a physical rebirth; when one comes out of one's self, and sins no more generate in it, one is out of the influence of Mara; that is the stage when one achieves nirvana or salvation or peace and happiness. This all happens in this life and continues when one goes into heaven after death, in the afterlife, in my opinion.
I think, paarsurrey, you should investigate what the Buddha actually taught and approach it on its own terms rather than attempting to reinterpret it through the prism of Islam.
kind regards,
Ben
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:41 pm
by Buckwheat
paarsurrey wrote:This all happens in this life and continues when one goes into heaven after death, in the afterlife, in my opinion.
That's your opinion, but not at all what the Buddha taught.
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:00 pm
by paarsurrey
Buckwheat wrote:paarsurrey wrote:This all happens in this life and continues when one goes into heaven after death, in the afterlife, in my opinion.
That's your opinion, but not at all what the Buddha taught.
I think Buddha believed in heaven and hell where one dwells after death. Didn't he?
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:47 pm
by Ben
paarsurrey wrote:Buckwheat wrote:paarsurrey wrote:This all happens in this life and continues when one goes into heaven after death, in the afterlife, in my opinion.
That's your opinion, but not at all what the Buddha taught.
I think Buddha believed in heaven and hell where one dwells after death. Didn't he?
You may wish to revisit this post:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ad#p185644" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:27 am
by santa100
Paarsurrey wrote:
"I think Buddha believed in heaven and hell where one dwells after death. Didn't he?"
While the Buddha certainly did teach about heaven and hell, there're more to His teaching: that there are different kinds of heavens and if one was reborn there, none of those places would be his/her "permanent" dwelling. The best thing that one should do is to practice until one nice day, one'd no longer have a "self" that needs to seek residency anywhere else. This is Nibbana, the unconditioned, unbinding, utmost bliss, etc...