Meditation Influence Diagram

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby uragamuni » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:58 pm

I built an alternate version of Travis' diagram using a software called GraphViz (http://www.graphviz.org). The graphviz graph representation separates the presentation (layout, etc) from the relationships, so on one hand it's much easier to fix and update the information and on the other hand the layout generation is automatic (but one can include hints to guide it).

The attached file includes source code and the diagram produced from it. This graph is based on the original Travis' diagram plus the fixes/enhacements suggested up to now.
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:42 pm

uragamuni wrote:I built an alternate version of Travis' diagram using a software called GraphViz (http://www.graphviz.org). The graphviz graph representation separates the presentation (layout, etc) from the relationships, so on one hand it's much easier to fix and update the information and on the other hand the layout generation is automatic (but one can include hints to guide it).

The attached file includes source code and the diagram produced from it. This graph is based on the original Travis' diagram plus the fixes/enhacements suggested up to now.
That is pretty spiffy, and in many ways clearer. Ven Nanarama should have a direct line to Mahasi Sayadaw. Kornfeild should not have a direct line from Munidra-ji. There should be a direct line from Dipa Ma to each: Kornfeild, Goldstein, Salzberb and Schwartz-Mandell. And even that can be refined even more.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:47 pm

And Kornfield needs a direct line from Ajahn Chah, which would only be appropriate for the individual who helped big time to bring Ajahn Chah and his lineage to the fore.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:02 pm

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us Nanarama and Mahasi Sayadaw connexion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Travis » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:17 pm

Wow, thanks everyone. This is great.
Goofaholix wrote:The way it's laid out makes it look like the Thai Forest tradition is subordinated to the various Burmese traditions

Yeah, that is unfortunate, but just a result of needing to connect Kornfield with Ajahn Chah. The Thai forest tradition was orignially in the top right. Then I realized the Ajahn Chah connection and had to break out Kornfield from a group box and connect with the "Chah lineage."

David N. Snyder wrote:And if you really want to get ambitious with the project, you could make a transmission line that goes back to the Buddha.

That would be cool. Good suggestion. This does lean towards "all-inclusive" which would beg the question why not include every student and every teacher, rather than the arbitrary, but useful, limitation of accessibility to a westerner via speaking or having translations available in english.

Viscid wrote: I'd particularily like to see the Thai Forest tradition's history past Ajahn Sao.

The original intention was to show where each person learned/studied meditation, and if it was not explicitly stated I would include who they ordained under. In the Thai Forest Tradition, as I understand it, Sao was credited by Mun as the origin of the schools meditation practices, but for all intents and purposes it was Mun who was the innovator. From what I have read (perhaps an over-simplification) was that Sao's practice was repeating "Buddho" which is still a feature of the line.

danieLion wrote:...have you thought of any way to (1) delineate chronology, and (2) more straightforwardly specify independent/broken versus overlapping/linking lines?


1. Add a birth/death year to each name.
2. Use different software and/or reformat.

Cittasanto wrote:The problem with the Ajahn Chah area is that not all who were ordained by him were actually his direct students.

Yes. Again just a matter of ironing out the details. Thanks for the info.

Thanks Ben and Tilt for all the info. Some of the "errors" could be that I was looking for who each person had studied meditation with so notions of meditation mentor took precedence over teacher if it wasn't clear if that teacher had taught meditation.

Thanks uragamuni for the alt. version. That could be a good roadmap for a new layout. I think that somethings are better/clearer, but I will see if I can find some software that gives a little more control. I was using asciiflow to generate this diagram. After I got into it, it became more of a limiting factor and resulted in some of the formatting issues.

Thanks again everyone! :bow: I will have some free time tomorrow to go through all of the details and look into other ways of generating the diagram.

With metta,
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Travis » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:59 pm

1. I'm thinking about reformatting the diagram with diagramly using uragamuni's alt. version as a reference for figuring out the layout.
2. Ben about Mahasi Sayadaw's lineage, I haven't been able to find any other reference (besides the book you provided) to a connection with Ledi>Monyin>Mahasi. In his biography at mahasi.org there is a reference to U Narada:
mahasi.org:
In the eighth year after his Bhikkhu ordination, he and another monk left Mawlamyaing equipped with the bare necessities of a Bhikkhu (i.e. alms bowl, a set of three robes, etc.), and went in search of a clear and effective method in the practice of mediation. At Thaton he met the well-known Mediation Teacher, the Venerable U Nærada, who is also known as 'Mingun Jetawun Sayædaw the First'. He then placed himself under the guidance of the Sayædaw and at once proceeded with an intensive course of mediation.

He had progressed so well in his practice that he was able to teach the method effectively to his first three disciples in Seikkhun while he was on a visit there the example of these three, gradually as many as fifty villagers joined the courses of intensive practice.

Also in Strong Roots by Jake H. Davis (page 111):
The Mingun Jetawun Sayadaw U Nārada (1868-1955) was one monk who became interested in applying his theoretical knowledge from the Pāḷi, but mindfulness practice was apparently so rare in nineteenth century Burma that he had to travel to the wilderness of the Sagaing Hills for guidance. There he found a recluse called the Aletawya Sayadaw, who had practiced with the same The-Lon Sayadaw mentioned above. U Nārada inquired of this reclusive monk how to achieve the goal of the teachings that he had studied so extensively. The Aletawya Sayadaw reportedly asked U Nārada in return why he was looking outside of the Buddha’s teachings, since they so clearly point out the path of mindfulness as the way to achieve awakening.

The satipaṭṭhāna practice taught by the Mingun Jetawun Sayadaw to the Mahāsi Sayadaw and others did not require extensive tranquility preparation previous to insight practice.

Cittasanto:
Cittasanto wrote:or Ajahn Sumedho, who hadn't been ordained by Ajahn Chah, (same for Ajahn Brahm) but these are his disciples.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajahn_Sumedho:
From 1967-77 at Wat Nong Pa Pong, trained under Ajahn Chah. He has come to be regarded as the latter's most influential Western disciple.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajahn_Brahm:
He subsequently spent nine years studying and training in the forest meditation tradition under Ajahn Chah.

Cittasanto wrote:Mae Chee Kaew isnt there, I think she was a disciple of Ajahn Mun.
also you miss Ajahn Vajiro.

It seems that Mae Chee Kaew received instruction from Ajahn Mun and Maha Bua according to her biography. Ajahn Vajiro would be connected to Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Sumedho.
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:40 pm

Travis wrote:Cittasanto:
Cittasanto wrote:or Ajahn Sumedho, who hadn't been ordained by Ajahn Chah, (same for Ajahn Brahm) but these are his disciples.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajahn_Sumedho:
From 1967-77 at Wat Nong Pa Pong, trained under Ajahn Chah. He has come to be regarded as the latter's most influential Western disciple.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajahn_Brahm:
He subsequently spent nine years studying and training in the forest meditation tradition under Ajahn Chah.

I said ordained, that is different from being a disciple, or training under someone.
I can not remember who ordained Ajahn Sumedho, but Ajahn Brahm was ordained by the present acting Sangharaja.

Cittasanto wrote:Mae Chee Kaew isnt there, I think she was a disciple of Ajahn Mun.
also you miss Ajahn Vajiro.

It seems that Mae Chee Kaew received instruction from Ajahn Mun and Maha Bua according to her biography. Ajahn Vajiro would be connected to Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Sumedho.

Yes, Although I Believe he is a disciple of Ajahn Chah.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Travis » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:37 pm

Cittasanto wrote:I said ordained, that is different from being a disciple, or training under someone.

I guess we may be talking past each other here a bit. Just to be clear, the connections I would like to illustrate are more "trained/mentored in meditation under" and lacking this detail I rely on "Ordained Under" or "Disciple of"

Cittasanto wrote:Yes, Although I Believe he is a disciple of Ajahn Chah.

Yes, that seems to be true. Regarding his connection to Sumedho: "Since 1984, Ajahn Vajiro has been assisting at the Amaravati Buddhist Monastery in England that is under the leadership of Ajahn Sumedho." There is no evidence of any training/mentorship, but the proximity would be of interest to those who are interested in Sumedho, so it would be included, but by a line without an arrow (denoting the direction of the transmission of ideas/teaching/mentorship).

Thanks cittasanto
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Travis » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:39 pm

Here are some of the additions/revisions I plan on making, anyone who has any info, suggestions, corrections, etc. let me know. I will probably start a new diagram soon. *teachers included in Kornfield's "Living Dharma"

Ajahn Chah>Ajan Sumedho>Ajahn Sucitto
Ajahn Brahm & Ajahn Maha Chatchai>Sujato
Ajahn Mun>Mae Chee Kaew
Ajahn Chah & Ajahn Sumedho>Ajahn Vajiro
Mahasi sayadaw & Munindraji (Anagarika Shri Munindra)>Dipa Ma>silva Boorstein, joseph goldstein, Michelle Levy, Sharon Salzberg
S.N. Goenka>Munindraji>Sharon Salzberg & Surya Das & Joseph Goldstein
S.N Goenka & Dipa Ma & Sayadaw U Pandita> Joseph Goldstein
Jack Kornfield>Gil Fronsdal
Narada Thera> Ayya Khema
Mahasi Sayadaw>Jayana>Nanarama
Ajahn Pathunta U Vilasa>Ajahn Naeb*
Ajahn Dhammadharo>Ajahn Jumien*
Ledi>U Ba San>Sunlun*>Sayadw "U Sobhana" (not Mahasi Sayadaw)
Yay Lai Sayadw>Sunlun*
Ledi>Mogok? & sayagyi U Kyi
U Narada>Taungpulu Sayadaw
Bhaddanta Sobhita & Mahasi Sayadaw >Shwe Oo Min Sayadaw>U Tejaniya
Ajahn Dhammadaro>Ajahn Ghosananda>Jack Kornfield
Ajahn Chah & Mahasi sayadaw & Ajahn Buddhadasa & Dipa Ma>Jack Kornfield
Jack Kornfield (remove) U Pandita & Munindraji connections

Does anyone know if Mogok trained under Ledi Sayadaw? He is said to have "followed in the footsteps" of Ledi, and I have seen comments about a certain similarity in the approach of the two, but can't find a clear "teacher" or "tradition" for Mogok.

Also I'm having trouble figuring out anything about if Yay Lai Sayadaw (taught Sunlun) is connected anywhere else. He is said to be "of Meik-hti-lar" and may be connected to "Nyaung-Lunt monastery"?

:anjali:
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:41 pm

Keep in mind that Kornfeild does not list Munidraji as a teacher. His primary practice and training.was as a monk under Ajahn Chah.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Travis » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Keep in mind that Kornfeild does not list Munidraji as a teacher. His primary practice and training.was as a monk under Ajahn Chah.


Sorry Tilt, I fixed it in my previous post.
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Ben » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:51 pm

Travis wrote:Here are some of the additions/revisions I plan on making, anyone who has any info, suggestions, corrections, etc. let me know. I will probably start a new diagram soon. *teachers included in Kornfield's "Living Dharma"

Ajahn Chah>Ajan Sumedho>Ajahn Sucitto
Ajahn Brahm & Ajahn Maha Chatchai>Sujato
Ajahn Mun>Mae Chee Kaew
Ajahn Chah & Ajahn Sumedho>Ajahn Vajiro
Mahasi sayadaw & Munindraji (Anagarika Shri Munindra)>Dipa Ma>silva Boorstein, joseph goldstein, Michelle Levy, Sharon Salzberg
S.N. Goenka>Munindraji>Sharon Salzberg & Surya Das & Joseph Goldstein
S.N Goenka & Dipa Ma & Sayadaw U Pandita> Joseph Goldstein
Jack Kornfield>Gil Fronsdal
Narada Thera> Ayya Khema
Mahasi Sayadaw>Jayana>Nanarama
Ajahn Pathunta U Vilasa>Ajahn Naeb*
Ajahn Dhammadharo>Ajahn Jumien*
Ledi>U Ba San>Sunlun*>Sayadw "U Sobhana" (not Mahasi Sayadaw)
Yay Lai Sayadw>Sunlun*
Ledi>Mogok? & sayagyi U Kyi
U Narada>Taungpulu Sayadaw
Bhaddanta Sobhita & Mahasi Sayadaw >Shwe Oo Min Sayadaw>U Tejaniya
Ajahn Dhammadaro>Ajahn Ghosananda>Jack Kornfield
Ajahn Chah & Mahasi sayadaw & Ajahn Buddhadasa & Dipa Ma>Jack Kornfield
Jack Kornfield (remove) U Pandita & Munindraji connections

Does anyone know if Mogok trained under Ledi Sayadaw? He is said to have "followed in the footsteps" of Ledi, and I have seen comments about a certain similarity in the approach of the two, but can't find a clear "teacher" or "tradition" for Mogok.

Also I'm having trouble figuring out anything about if Yay Lai Sayadaw (taught Sunlun) is connected anywhere else. He is said to be "of Meik-hti-lar" and may be connected to "Nyaung-Lunt monastery"?

:anjali:


Hi Travis

Does anyone know if Mogok trained under Ledi Sayadaw? He is said to have "followed in the footsteps" of Ledi, and I have seen comments about a certain similarity in the approach of the two, but can't find a clear "teacher" or "tradition" for Mogok.


When I was in Myanmar I was doing a 30-day vipassana retreat at VMC Dhamma Mandala outside of Mandalay. Next door to us was a monastery where a 28-day vipassana course was being held for the monks. The instructions and pali chants from the monastery were being broadcast via loud-speaker. At the end of my 30-day course, my Burmese co-students told me that monks retreat was vipassana meditation in the Mogok Sayadaw's style. They told me that it was almost identical to what we were doing in the SN Goenka/U Ba Khin "tradition". I have seen reference, somewhere, to the Ledi Sayadaw/Mogok Sayadaw link but don't remember where.

In the book that I mentioned earlier, "Burma's Mass Lay Meditation Movement", it describes Mahasi Sayadaw as Monyin Sayadaw's "protege". \What has become clear to me is that the relationships between teacher and student isn't always clear nor well documented. When I was in Myanmar I actually wanted to do some research on the history of meditation in Myanmar but I didn't realize I needed permission from the Dept of Religious Affairs!
kind regards,

Ben
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- Heraclitus


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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:57 am

Travis wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:I said ordained, that is different from being a disciple, or training under someone.

I guess we may be talking past each other here a bit. Just to be clear, the connections I would like to illustrate are more "trained/mentored in meditation under" and lacking this detail I rely on "Ordained Under" or "Disciple of"

I was illustrating ordained and disciple are not the same.

Cittasanto wrote:Yes, Although I Believe he is a disciple of Ajahn Chah.

Yes, that seems to be true. Regarding his connection to Sumedho: "Since 1984, Ajahn Vajiro has been assisting at the Amaravati Buddhist Monastery in England that is under the leadership of Ajahn Sumedho." There is no evidence of any training/mentorship, but the proximity would be of interest to those who are interested in Sumedho, so it would be included, but by a line without an arrow (denoting the direction of the transmission of ideas/teaching/mentorship).
[/quote]
Proximity doesn't really say much, take the two new Bhikkhunis in california (sorry can not recall their names), they both could be included in that list yet at best Ajahn Sumedho is only given a passing reference on their site, from memory. and their are disciples of of other Ajahns at amaravati who spent a number of years at Amaravati or with Ajahn Sumedho.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Travis » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:30 pm

Hello everyone. Version 2 is complete. Let me know what you think.
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:30 pm

Travis wrote:Hello everyone. Version 2 is complete. Let me know what you think.
Looks good. Thanks for the effort.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Modus.Ponens » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:45 pm

:thumbsup:

Thanks!
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Ben » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:16 pm

Well done, Travis!
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Heraclitus


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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:50 pm

Why is Gunaratana not connected to anyone? Does he really have no known teacher or is there just a dearth of information?

Great job though!
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:52 am

Greetings Travis, all,

What about...

Sutta Pitaka > Ven. Gnanananda

See: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11967#p190713

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:29 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Travis, all,

What about...

Sutta Pitaka > Ven. Gnanananda

See: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11967#p190713

Metta,
Retro. :)
Buddha/Sutta Pitaka > Everyone on the list.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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